Karma Options

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/

What is karma?

Karma is a Sanskrit word that literally means "action". The word is used to refer to volitional acts as well as the forces that arise from these acts. The idea of karma had existed in ancient Indian philosophy before the time of Siddhartha Gautama, and it became an important element of Buddhist philosophy.

The Hindu and Buddhist concepts of karma are quite similar, although Hinduism makes a further distinction between different types of karma, such as present karma, latent karma, and future karma. In the understanding of both thought systems, the law of karma describes the connection between actions and the resulting forces, as follows: wholesome actions lead to wholesome states while unwholesome actions lead to unwholesome states, individually as well as collectively.

Is there really a connection between actions and resulting forces? Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions and yet died in his bed. It seems that the unwholesome actions of a minority are most often turned into unwholesome states for the poor masses below them. Bad things often happen to good people.

What is the moral mechanism (if any) at work here?

Greetings!
It has been my experience that "what goes around, comes around" isn't accurate. It's mostly wishful thinking on the injured parties part. True, if one surrounds themselves with evil nasty things/thoughts, they will in all probability have to live with evil, nasty things/thoughts. I'm not entirely convinced that Karma is the end all state. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/7.gif)

I think that saying about things going around come around doesn't mean like for like, but more that what we put out into the world is copied and if there is enough of that behaviour as more people adopt a certain way of acting, then statistically, we are more likely to be on the receiving end of it.

What we see as good and bad things that happen often have logical explanations even if you have to go back and look many years, there seems to be a natural law that says if you keep doing something then inevitably something will come of it, either for good or ill.

It crossed my mind that sometimes we remind ourselves that since Person A has done us a good turn at some point, then we owe a good turn back and I wondered if that worked the other way as well, I mean if Person A keeps doing me a bad turn, should I return the favour?

It has been my experience that "what goes around, comes around" isn't accurate. It's mostly wishful thinking on the injured parties part.

I hope all those injured parties never stop their wishful thinking!

I don't believe in karma, but I do know where the thought comes from. Power does, can and will corrupt. In the eastern tradition there are many stories of this. The one I recall off the top of my head is of a buddhist monk hundreds of years ago who summoned a deadly energy field and killed 100 or 200 people. The next day he was discovered destroyed.

To bring in a 'moral' mechanism one might have to consider past, present and future Karma. We can only see present Karma in action and so furture Karma will act after rebirth (if one believes in such a concept).

karma is all about the enlightened self,the higher self. actions that affect someone elses higher self result in karma actions.

To bring up a contrary viewpoint, enlightened self is liberated from karma. Direct actions without attachment do not bring karmic load.

As Liber AL puts it:

For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect.

This post has been edited by Calyx: Dec 9 2005, 04:36 PM

It is often said that buddhism is nihilistic, often by people that do not completely understand.

Isn't the goal of buddhism enlightenment, isnt enlightenment also about stopping the cycle of rebirth. thus after death one is not reborn.
This boils down to the fact that life is not important.
That does not mean that one cannot value life.
One is not attached to life, but one enjoys it anyway. compare this to the 4 noble truths, it is the hardest part where they cane be applied, no attachement to life. No desire for life. But not for death either!

In a merely spiritual point of view, life and death are no big things.

To emrace the idea of karma the other ideas connected to it must also be embraced. It is part of a whole, a system, and the other parts must not be overlooked if one wants to understand one part of the system.
Such as rebirth, maya, and the escape from the cycle of rebirth and thus enlightenment.

I have no intention of going in depth into these ideas, becouse it would take to much time, but i am certain that you know all these things.
They fit together...

What karma is not!
A feel good revenge satisfying idea.
It is not something to help the fluffy bunnies feel fluffy. To help them forgive nastie christians, becouse 'the law of 3 will get them for us'.
Reality is hard, life is hard, karma can be devestating.

Another thing, humanity has wiped entire species from existance and continues to do so, what stalin or hitler did does nat even compare to that.
We think we are so special, we great humans, but we are not, we are destroying life everywhere. the gasses that come from the powerplant powering your computer as you read this, are destroying...

It boils down to this, don't break your head trying to understand something that is not humanly understandable. Karma is a higher law, and altough it can be compared to morality, it is not morality, not at all. And that is our own luck.

Buddhism is part about being above karma. without attachement there are no possible punishements, so any act from karma would not have an effect on our happyness.
Becouse of that, we can be released from karma, since karma can no longer reach us.

I think only an enligthened one can fully see karma working. I won't even try to understand, and i don't think one could gain anything from understanding it.

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It indeed is not as simple as many make out, nor, I believe, is it a moral law, so I agree with Smoking Fox.

Think of it this way: what you do is what you are, and what you think and feel is what you are as well. We have a choice about these things. We can either act on habitual patterns, digging a deeper river-bed, or we can distance oursleves from the chain-reaction of our thoughts, feelings, and limited views, step outside of ourselves, and make a choice based on awareness, rather than clouded perception. What you give is what you get, but it mostly takes place on a level not directly visible.

To clarify what I mean, here is great quote from an article on Buddhist practice:
"A good spirit is one which radiates love outwards from itself towards all others with whom it is connected. And the "higher" the type of spirit, the more it is intrinsically connected with all sentient beings. An evil spirit, on the other hand, is one which has become closed upon itself, isolated from the whole, and lives tightly turned inwards on its own neurosis. The tighter and darker becomes the suffering of that spirit, the more demonic its nature."

In that sense, Stalin and Hitler did suffer (and if you believe in reincarnation, perhaps still do, unless they've somehow been uplifted). Even a murderous sociopath who feels no regret and suffers no reprucussions for his acts, whether from himself or from the world, experiences a great deal of suffering they are most probably not even aware of, being so "turned inward on its own neurosis".

I think the metaphor of a river-bed is a good one, becuase it indicates that our mind flows in the direction of our choice of action, and the deeper the river-bed, the more entrenched the habit, the more difficult it is to alter its course. As they say in Buddhism, if one kills, it is easier to kill again.

Also, if one believes in rebirth, then when death occurs, we are faced with the totality of our river-bed, something many of us avoid in life, but is unavoidable at death. Either one can face that, and, if we have the awareness, rise above ourselves, or the river-bed becomes the blue-print of our next life.

But that's just how I see it. And as Smoking Fox says,

I think only an enligthened one can fully see karma working

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/[/url]
Is there really a connection between actions and resulting forces? Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions and yet died in his bed. It seems that the unwholesome actions of a minority are most often turned into unwholesome states for the poor masses below them. Bad things often happen to good people.

What is the moral mechanism (if any) at work here?

It is said that the law of karma is uniform and without exception. Now, I have come to beleave that the law of karma is more that just "what goes around comes around". I you kick a dog right now...that doesnt neccesarily mean youll be reborn as a dog and be kicked. If you steal a purse today your sisters purse will get stolen tommorrow. The law of karma includes your intentions at the moment, against whom, the five precepts, etc. For example...if an executioner is to execute a criminal for a crime...will the executioner be executed in his next life? Perhaps not. If the executioner carries out his job with no ill will in his heart, wishes his most sincerest apologies, etc. all will be well. Another example would be a general in war. What does a general do? Will he suffer eternal damnation for waging war? Maybe Hitler and his "people" were the oppressed in another life and now they settled the score. Vengence? Karma? What if? Further...I beleave there is no good karma and bad karma. There is only karma...the balance. And maybe whats happening to you know...you see as something bad. You blame it on past actions. But if you learn something from it and it fortifys your spirit...is it really bad karma?

Well karma is a concept derived from Hinduism (Buddhism being based on Hinduism) and Hinduism has a strong focus on rebirth, I believe karma to follow you after this life. I was once told by a friend (who knows more about our religion, Hinduism, than I) that after each life you get punished (tortured) and there are different punishments for different crimes. I never researched whether this was based on any of the scriptures but I do trust her word in regards to religion as she is a strong believer.

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/[/url]
Is there really a connection between actions and resulting forces? Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions and yet died in his bed. It seems that the unwholesome actions of a minority are most often turned into unwholesome states for the poor masses below them. Bad things often happen to good people.

What is the moral mechanism (if any) at work here?

From what I understand, the balance of karma will be restored. This may not happen in this lifetime, one will reincarnate and have to deal with their misdeeds....

It is an immutable law that operates in this world.

I agree with hungwe, for the most part. Karma is an article of faith for those who believe in reincarnation.

For example, Hitler or Stalin (or many other terrible men) did not recieve the punishments they deserved in this life. For someone who believes in Hell, it is easy to see Hitler and Stalin recieving their 'just desserts' in a burning Hell. But, the concept of Hell, in most Christian groups, is a condition that lasts forever. Regardless of what Hitler and Stalin did, does they really deserve to be punished in a burning, searing Hell FOREVER?

Enter the doctrine of reincarnation. Those that believe in reincarnation belive that Hitler and Stalin have been reincarnated into NEW lives into this world. Let's say Hitler became a child in a brutal, abusive childhood, and is now in and out of jail because of his uncontrollable temper and his wrong-headed decisions (this is their Karmic consequence for their previous life). He lives this miserable life and goes on to another, then another, and another, and so on until he sees the errors of his broken and mal-formed personality. Then finally, his personailty is corrected, he lives a fairly "normal" life with "normal" parents, and he grows up to be a "normal" piano-tuner.

This is the beauty of reincarnation -- that one isn't doomed to spend an ETERNITY being punished for what one does in this life. One might be punished for a while (perhaps even a GREAT while) but sooner or later one is incarnate as a "normal" person, after this person has learned the lesson(s) they must learn in order to amend the broken-ness of the personality that caused all the suffering (of others) they inflicted in a previous life.

Actually, reincarnation (and Karma) is a rather sobering belief; do you want to be born in the next life in a broken home, with an abusive father (or mother), getting beat up in school every day, and on and on. Of course not - so you will live a good life, dedicated to helping as many of your "neighbors" as you can, so that your Karmic consequences will always be positive.

I hope my explaination helps those that weren't understanding reincarnation.

Light, Life, and Love.

Peace Profound for everyone,

Neshamah

This post has been edited by Neshamah: Aug 8 2008, 11:39 AM