Completion And Choosing A New System. Options

So... you've finished your path working on which and what ever it is you were doing for the past X amount of years, free to more or less do what you want so you look toward other systems to work with, plenty out there why not test a new field.

Now... how do you go about it?

Do you take to that system using the attributes gained in the last or do you approach it all as a complete Neophyte, ground level up...? Is that even possible considering you've already gained a form of self mastery?

Many orders wouldn't be happy with a person utilizing their skills while working their system, dosen't bode well on the groups collectve consious, confuses initiations, but put it into a diffrent context, how does a sucessful businessman approach a new business? Does he forget all that he has learnt, not use his past experience and resources and play along or does he factor them in to help with any new endevor? Questioning this applies well to systems that use the QBL as it can be deceptively contextive, Tiphareth is Tiphareth but one system places Horus on its path and another Ra, diffrence is the understanding and form of system used so if you now as a Cerimonial come along and invoke the planet involved... where do you stand?

Musings (IMG:style_emoticons/default/Laie_58.gif)

Peace
.M.

Not sure. Why are you wanting to chose a new system? Have you really attained all that you can with the system you're using, or is that system just not working for you anymore? I think the answers to these questions would heavily influence what system you wanted to "move on towards."

After making the switch...an analogy comes to mind:

In martial arts, black belts are often required to learn a different martial arts system in order to be advanced to the next "dan" ranking. When they start out in the new system, often times the Sensei will recognize "ok, you've learned these skills our system uses, but you haven't learned these skills," and so they're placed in a rank a degree or two down from black while working on the essential techniques. And this is possible because, -really- there's only "so many ways" to lock up a person's joint, to throw a punch or kick, et cetera.

I think learning spiritual paths is comparable, since there can be a lot of overlapping knowledge and technique between systems. Or not! Medieval archery is a lot different from Karate.

Some martial arts traditions are also bigoted, and will degrade new members into thinking everything they've learned in the past is "bad" or "wrong." But really, it's really more a way of enforcing the existing hierarchy than teaching martial arts. I'd stay away from groups like this in any category.

Not sure. Why are you wanting to chose a new system? Have you really attained all that you can with the system you're using, or is that system just not working for you anymore? I think the answers to these questions would heavily influence what system you wanted to "move on towards."

After making the switch...an analogy comes to mind:

In martial arts, black belts are often required to learn a different martial arts system in order to be advanced to the next "dan" ranking. When they start out in the new system, often times the Sensei will recognize "ok, you've learned these skills our system uses, but you haven't learned these skills," and so they're placed in a rank a degree or two down from black while working on the essential techniques. And this is possible because, -really- there's only "so many ways" to lock up a person's joint, to throw a punch or kick, et cetera.
I think learning spiritual paths is comparable, since there can be a lot of overlapping knowledge and technique between systems. Or not! Medieval archery is a lot different from Karate.

Some martial arts traditions are also bigoted, and will degrade new members into thinking everything they've learned in the past is "bad" or "wrong." But really, it's really more a way of enforcing the existing hierarchy than teaching martial arts. I'd stay away from groups like this in any category.

Hmmmmm... a better analogy than mine perhaps.

Its not so much wanting to choose a new system, in Cerimonial work its almost a given that an adept will complete his path with one school and seek to make ground in another, Alchemy, Enochian for example, especially with the QBL as a template, makes such a transition ''seem'' simple... in my opinion diffrent schools have a diffrent energy behind them hemce the term, ''school of thought'' with referance made to the mind, of thinking but there you go.

This is an issue that I'm facing at the moment was/am trying to open it up and make it a general conversation as its an intresting one but to cut to the chase I'll pose my case as an example, be the lab rat in question...

At the moment I'm with the G.D working as slow as a mule but as sure (and as stubborn) as one too. As I'm a solitary practioner things can get a tad lonesome so I chanced upon another group who hold general classes for the public, lessons on outer order stuff that dosen't go too deep but keeps people intrested and ensures a steady flow of new members kind of thing, They're of a priestly bent, extremely close, very much family like... enough to put me off as a solitary, their collective mentality almost locks others out entirely, sign of a good order. Was asked to join so I attended a ritual meeting out of curteosy but can't attend for obvious reasons. Now... they're QBL based but have a meditative, mantric approach... lack the bells and whistles of a magickal order but its appealing none the less. When finished with the G.D I'm hoping to take up P.Alchemy and BoL (body of light) type pathworkings but I'd like to join them at some point... so... the problem... they're priestly, I have traversed several grades already in a diffrent system and have little next to no intention of not using what I have learnt so far to aid in another pursuit (stubborn)... difficult coming from a diverse approach/system to a dogmatic one, not sure I would stew so well in that pot so I pose the question here to guage how others have found it.

Do think most groups would approach it as you mentioned, fast track candidates who can prove their salt but it would be difficult keeping a group together without rippling the pond, can see it being the cause for problems as said new member seeks to fit into said group,

Apologies in advance for flighty transitions from thought to thought...

Ideally a good magickal order will provide a good balance of freedom and structure for students to learn and experience what they need to at their own pace. Whether or not this works out...

It seems to me that you're attracted to some groups that have interesting subject matter but a problematic 'dogmatic' or 'priestly' political apparatus. So is there any way you can do Alchemy or body of light stuff without participating in these groups? Are there other groups that aren't this way? Could you do these practices by yourself and find a cool group of magickal people to hang out with?

Cuz yeah, when I hear "dogmatic" and "priestly," it makes me immediately think "this group has ego needs," meaning it'll likely be very invested in having you conform to the preset definition.

Wish I had more than my martial arts analogy; my personal experience with magicakal groups really doesn't apply to this case.

A dubious possibility: You could find an eclectic group with members interested in a variety of practices. Some of these groups can be really good, and your experience with other systems could give you a leadership role while also allowing you to learn from others. Not in my own experience, but I've heard from friends that O.T.O. can be like this, for instance; I wouldn't know, I keep promising to go, but I've never made it to a Gnostic mass in my life! LOL

G.D. is way cool though! Based on all their material, I'm VERY surprised that you're imagining a time in the near future when you'll have completed their course of study. Should I be? How long does it normally take to work through the G.D. system of magick?

Guess I can't call them dogmatic and complain really, they're priests full stop and I respect them for it. Taking that into regard... yeah... I'd probably have to stick with the program and not use anytihng else, difficult talking from a low grade perspective, things will come together at some point I'm sure but thats what the topic was about. Choosing a new system and not being able to use your past experience within that system.

G.D. is way cool though! Based on all their material, I'm VERY surprised that you're imagining a time in the near future when you'll have completed their course of study. Should I be? How long does it normally take to work through the G.D. system of magick?

Whole heap of fun, just like to bounce around a little, test new ground... also certain elements missing from it from a cultural perspective but yeah, its way cool. If anything I would have taken a look at the AMORC in its place as they're still very much around and offer a full course to work from taking ten years to complete... the G.D (self inititation) courses usually take around 5 - 7 years depending, lets say over a year in each grade taking it up to 5=6. Thinking the AMORC have you take a year in each offering a full course whereas with the G.D you'll be hard pressed facing 5=6 on your own which is where most discourse and take up something else... have seen some build a vault of the adepti on their own, now thats way past way cool and into dopeville.

Vault of the adept

There's nothing preventing you from forming your own eclectic style or system. It's just that the G.D. system wasn't constructed to allow individuals to make their own "system" within the G.D. So you could stay with the G.D. and make your own 'personal' system on the side as you do it. Or you can go through the system and -- at the end-- say "thanks" and (with the expert training) go do your own thing.

At least those are my thoughts...

How long have you been doing G.D.? What brought you to the system?

This post has been edited by monkman418: Jul 20 2009, 10:18 PM

There's nothing preventing you from forming your own eclectic style or system. It's just that the G.D. system wasn't constructed to allow individuals to make their own "system" within the G.D. So you could stay with the G.D. and make your own 'personal' system on the side as you do it. Or you can go through the system and -- at the end-- say "thanks" and (with the expert training) go do your own thing.

At least those are my thoughts...

How long have you been doing G.D.? What brought you to the system?

Would still find it difficult working with another group as a practicioner wouldn't be in the same current as the others. All by the by, difficult speaking as someone ''new'' to a school of thought and ponderign on what would happen a the end... ones view on life would be radically diffrent by then, problems probably wouldn't be problems .lol.

Started in Magick a few years ago, drifting around sad new age and confused books like, ''Pets who know when their owners are coming home'' and other such fluff before that, looking for an explination to a wider working of things. Was on a train, at Arnos Grove station (londond, england) using a hand pose, putting my two thumbs together in a lock as though it would benifit me somehow when someone got on, knew he was a magican straight away, broad rim hat, detective styled coat, air of confidence, we were the only two in our side of the carriage and I knew he wasn't intrested in pulling rabbits out of places or making balloon animals in even stranger shapes. As I got off I had to pass him and he either charged the atmosphere, effected my aura or changed his own aura as I passed by... electric... everything became distinctly astral all of a sudden and I knew he was asking me if I was a young magican, speaking through his mind rather than mouth... I hurried of the train tripping over myself along the way and went about my business with thoughts on reality and questions on my mind... picked up a copy of Modern Magick not soon after, someone on here let me onto an actual self initiation course not long after that and voilia.... been about four years now, wish I'd started on the course earlier rather than mess around with Kraig's text but it was a good primer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/Laie_58.gif)

Would still find it difficult working with another group as a practicioner wouldn't be in the same current as the others. All by the by, difficult speaking as someone ''new'' to a school of thought and ponderign on what would happen a the end... ones view on life would be radically diffrent by then, problems probably wouldn't be problems .lol.

True that.

But damn, that doesn't solve the problem now...

The thing is, I really do understand where you're coming from. You're involved in a system of magick, but you want to try a bunch of stuff outside that system, too.

See, I've never had a problem doing practices supplemental to working in a system. I haven't had any problems mentioning these practices and I've been respected for it, too. This work hasn't counted as extra-credit, even as the experience has helped me greatly in my regular practices.

For instance, Goetia...not exactly the high magick that's on the syllabi of most groups...but I got lots of practice in invocation, evocation, and banishing rituals through it-- and that's counted a lot towards my general skill level ( and towards my bank account, and towards my enemies having tragic accidents, et cetera...) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/00000008.gif)

Of course, trying out a bunch of practices and using that experience towards your main work is different than doing more than one group at once. But why shouldn't that be possible, assuming you have the time to devote to more than one system...

I worked through Kraig's book a couple years ago. Was a big help as a start-up 'practical' guide.

This post has been edited by monkman418: Jul 23 2009, 02:17 PM

Kraigs book... yeah... not sure about its attempt to initiate people through its grades though, a bit here and there. Glad someone pointed me in te right direction before I thought to start out on it. Good primer though, glad for it.

The issue here is the groups priestly devotion to one culture. Priests lack razamatazz in general so its not so appealing but would function well as a retirement note when I've finished pulling lightning bolts out of my ears .lol. In that regard they would have to make space for me and my haphazard intrests.

Another point... what if you work with one school, finish, and join another which has an almost radically diffrent approach to the last? Wouldn't that damage the work you have done before? E.G; (from what I know )in enochian you banish the sun rather than saturn in planetary workings. Whereas it is central to ones work in others.

Is intresting.

The issue here is the groups priestly devotion to one culture. Priests lack razamatazz in general so its not so appealing but would function well as a retirement note when I've finished pulling lightning bolts out of my ears .lol. In that regard they would have to make space for me and my haphazard intrests.

Another point... what if you work with one school, finish, and join another which has an almost radically diffrent approach to the last? Wouldn't that damage the work you have done before? E.G; (from what I know )in enochian you banish the sun rather than saturn in planetary workings. Whereas it is central to ones work in others.

Hmmm...culture...

Yeah, that's a problem, and not one that's easily solvable. It especially pains me to hear your anticipation that you won't "fit in" or will forever be the oddball.

Ok, here's a thought, take it for what it's worth. Could it be that there are other G.D. groups that you would fit in with better?

There's a big difference between two churches, for instance, insofar as the preacher/reverend...and so too the people that attend those churches differ.

Martal arts analogy: I practice Aikido, but there are very few Aikido dojos where I will attend classes. I require a Sensei that doesn't patronize the students, for instance. And some dojos cater to people much older than me, with 30-year-olds being "young," with anyone younger than that not really fitting into the group. So that can't be a problem, either.

There is more than one group of people practicing G.D. magic; could it be that it's the particular group of people and not the system that's a problem?

Radically different approaches...well...

I don't think there's a problem with trying out radically different approaches. The problem starts when those approaches become mutually exclusive.

To a certain extent, different symbolism may be used to express the same principal. In that case, it would be redundant.

In the event that the systems were dramatically opposed, I don't think it would hurt your previous work; rather, it would allow you to expand your knowledge and understanding in a different direction.

In the mutually exclusive case...well...I honestly don't think there's such a thing. Certain groups might SAY they are mutually exclusive to ensure the "superiority" of their teachings, or whatnot, but I call BS on that.

...

Yeah, I laughed a bit when Kraig suggested that a student who had reached a certain point in his book was an "Adept." Though the term is used relatively to his system.

If you were practicing yoga or someting and wanted to do western ceremonial magic. it would take abit of time to learn to do things from a seated asana to a standing one. but past knowledge would be to your benfit.

I hate how people wanna make magic formalized with hexegram rituals and corraspondence tables. Golden dawn is an organization. Christianity is an organization. organization sucks imao (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

what happened to free form and intuition. chaos and insanity.
people will pay a couple hundred bucks for a golden dawn wand when you can cut it from a branch.
why do we that live in modern soiciety need the approval of authority.
even with magic when it is more important for it to be of ourselves and connected to our uniqe personality and complexities why do people look for things to be the same as someone elses system. how does that work?

Why not do what you like and foget about systems and orders and so on?

Ps. isnt it funny that all these Occultist practice martial arts. I study JKD. martial arts and the occult are similar. infact they are connected in more ways than I can think of.

This post has been edited by scryer: Oct 5 2009, 10:13 AM