Q: Wicca / Christianity; How Do The Two Relate? Options

I am Auriel, I will further introduce myself at a later time.
At the moment, I am looking for people, able to concisely and accurately describe Wicca to a group of Christian people (various denominations), in the age-range of 20 to 25 years old.

I have been challenged to explain Wicca, but feel that my knowledge currently doesn't stretch far enough to accurately describe. I do believe it is possible to describe it, provided sufficient knowledge and experience with both Wicca and Christianity is present. It is my understanding these forums are frequented by wise and eloquent people. It is to them that I call, asking them to describe Wicca. Could someone assist me?


It should be known I have called upon powers before, and have been informed I should find fellow humans to explain the nature of either system to me.
I would be very pleased to be advised on this matter.

Blessed be,
Auriel

Hmmm…how to start this one.

Really, it is a hard question to answer for many reasons.

So many different views of what is Christianity or Wicca.
How infused Christianity is in most things in the “western culture”. So to try to separate what is one and what is the other…it can be hard. I will speak as I see fit on this, but I do not know your audience.


Wicca has a short history, 50~75 years. However it calls on many old religions and their beliefs, hence the name Neo-Pagan or new pagans.

Most Wiccans hold beliefs in many gods, usually holding more to one then others (my feeling on this is it is part of Christian culture, but many Hindu’s do the same and Christianity has not affected their culture as much.. However all the worlds pantheons are generally open To Wiccans, who pick and choose Gods as they see relating to them at the time. Some (many) wiccans hold true to their Gods for a long time, perhaps most if not all of their adult life. So it is not easy to pigeon hole.

At it’s base Wicca, is a religion made for and about small community and being at one with your environment. It came out of England when there was country in abundance and pleanty of fog.

The Archetypical gods are the Goddess and the Horned one or “The God” these are more archetypes then named gods. The Goddess is often referred to as having three aspects, maiden, mother, and crone. The God also has three aspects but is not often referred to as such. They are knight, king, sage.

Wicca is Earth Based, it’s holy days reflect the earths seasons, it’s art and literature reflect observations of nature and it’s passing. Wiccans have no taboos about sexuality as long as it is consensual. The Sacred Feminine is always a big topic of importance, more so then the sacred masculine, but that is changing (and it is women who are leading that charge mostly).

Christianity, is a religion of a bit under 2000 years. It follows the teachings of four apostles of it’s “god” and one man who never met the “prophet/god”. It also carries the teachings of it’s base religion Judaism the origin that religion is older and carries many teaching from earlier religions.

In general Christianity believe that their book is the word of “the One God” and is almost entirely true. However many believe that it is mostly allegorical and is a book that teaches man how one should live.

Many Christians Focus on an afterlife of pleasure and love or eternal damnation. Wiccans mostly follow the line that the after life is similar to this life, and for many reincarnation is a part of their beliefs.

Christians feel they must spread their Faith, they generally use themes of them against Satan “the antagonist of their scripture” as a call to action. This is generally seen today as cultural propaganda, when done by a country or region, and as advertisement and sales when done by a company.

Wiccans mostly do the same, but they often use Christians as their antagonists.

Wiccans now often steal anything into their philosophy to fit their reality.

Christians did this until 375 years after the death of their philosopher god. The amount of greek philosophy in Christianity is pretty astounding, and their Saint Paul should get the credit.

In General both religions refer to persecution in their history and use them as a call to never let it happen again.

Core being.

Both religions offer much to their seekers, both offer abstract thought and allegorical stories and mythical experience. Both get the person to think not only of themselves but of their community. Both religions have great people and misguided people who are part of it.

Both religions have community events. Both have sacred ceremonies. The main difference is accountability. In Christianity, you can be redeemed of all your transgressions at the moment of your death. In Wicca, you will always pay the price (for many it is three times). However in Wicca it is much harder to transgress, as they are generally more accepting of the human condition.

Both religions have magick, one refers to it as Magick, the other as Miracles. Both seek and receive guidance from unseen entities.

Christianity has more baggage from it’s longer history. It was at one time an incredibly powerfull political force in the world, now it is simply political in it’s own countries.

Christianity has many contradictions. Wiccans also often have many, but since Wicca does not have a central institution, it is not institutional contradictions.

Wicca does not follow any charismatic leaders, with the exceptions of some of the “traditions”. It is more of a personal experience and celebrates diversity.

Christianity follows charismatic leaders or institutional ones.

I can go on and on…I need questions that are more exact.

My feelings in general are this.

In a perfect healthy environment with well adjusted adults, Christianity offers more of a guide as to how one should treat others. Wicca offers more of a guide as to how one should treat them selves.

Wicca is too young to be correctly compared to Christianity. Look at Mormons, 15+ million active followers, and a hundred and seventy years of existence is still considered a marginal religion by many.

It will likely be very difficult.

The main problem is that Christianity does not, scripturally and culturally speaking, accept any other religion as being spiritually legitimate. In their minds, it won't matter what you feel that you believe, they will believe that you're worshipping satan.

Given that at a core level I myself am no longer Christian, I also have the same problem. The only person I've told so far is my mother...but have kept it very general, rather than naming specific deities as such.

I'd very much keep it on a need to know basis; find those individuals who you feel really need to be informed, and those who you feel are likely to be more sympathetic, and gauge how much you can tell them from there. I'd probably try and ask a few leading questions first, in order to determine how open they are to the idea of other religions in general...some will be moreso than others...and that will give you an idea of who is going to simply assume you're a demoniac, and who will be understanding. Don't develop the "pride" mindset where you feel compelled to flaunt it to those people who don't actually need to know about it...that will likely only cause conflict and other problems.

Good luck. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thank you for your fast replies, Paxx, Petrus.
Also, thank you for the excellently neutral comparison between Wicca and Cristianity, Paxx. You have helped me focus on some key similarities/differences. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And Petrus, thanks for the warning. I do have to say that I myself am currently (still) a christian, but I understand your sentiment concerning the rejective attitude of Christianity concerning the legitimacy of other faiths/systems of belief. Strictly dogmatically speaking, from a christian point of view, either faith is invalidated by the key dogmas of christianity. Of course, this logic incontinuicy has caused "the Church" to lose sight and track, and caused it to split up so many times.
It has always been my biggest question to "the Church" why there are so many who claim they are the single, redeeming faith. Last time I checked, it was Christ who was redeeming, and the Church but a gathering of followers. Why have any dogmas at all? If we are indeed the true faith, God will reveal that to all. At least, that's been my position on this matter mostly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The fact that I am visiting these forums does give some idea about my own vision on this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
I do not unknowingly reject any faith. It is my belief that doing so would be throwing the child out with the badwater... as Christianity has long lost its pureness. Sharing Nietzsche's words: "The only true Christian was Christ himself" or Christianity broke off from the path once its prime directors were all human, from the Apostles onward.
Divine Law manifests itself in various ways, and not a single system of beliefs can claim to effectively encompass it in its entirety. Now don't ask me why I call myself a christian, as I am obviously suffering from a mild 'confusion' in that light. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Doesn't change that my ideas are clear, while abstract.

Again, thanks for the replies so far.. I do appreciate any further reactions. I'm not due to explain these things yet, but I am glad Paxx handed a basic comparative guide. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It is hard, Christianity in general is an 'exclusive' religion, it tries to own the world and everything in it. Thats why it doesnt accept outside religions. One thing thats worth pointing out about Wicca is that Gardner, who invented it, took elements from a lot of religions. It has hand-fasting instead of marriage, naming ceremonies instead of baptism. In that way it fulfils the requirements of a lot of people as their choice of religion. The original concept was to produce a religion which gave a more female orientation to it. Hence the Earth Mother Goddess. I even know Christian Wiccans who see the Goddess as Gods other side.

And Petrus, thanks for the warning. I do have to say that I myself am currently (still) a christian, but I understand your sentiment concerning the rejective attitude of Christianity concerning the legitimacy of other faiths/systems of belief.

I still don't really know what I am now, religiously speaking, in any formal sense. I've always been interested in parapsychology and occultism, and although I'd tried to be a devout Christian growing up, back in 2000 or so I stopped going to church because I was sick of Christians considering me a monster and being scared of me. I felt completely rejected by the church after that...I had Christians online as well calling me the spawn of satan and other stuff.

I remember one time, where it was really bad...my mother and I had gone into the city here and Mum had gone into a Catholic bookshop. I started crying and had to go outside...the sense of guilt was just so bad. I also went and saw The Green Mile when it came out...and at one point at the end of that film I was crying that hard from accumulated guilt and fear that I thought I was going to tear my stomach. I made a decision after that...in that cinema...that I was never again going to be a part of any belief system that caused me to feel like that.

In 2002 I got into a relationship which ended up being really psychologically abusive...on both sides, if I'm honest. My relationship with my parents hadn't been so good when I left home, and my then-girlfriend had alienated all my other friends to the point where I was no longer in contact with anyone outside the relationship at all. I had no money, and no way that I could see of ending the relationship. In the end I thought I'd most likely be in it for the rest of my life, irrespective of how unhappy I was. I thought I was about as low as I could possibly go.

Then last year, at one point, I saw Kali. At the time I didn't know that's who it was...I knew virtually nothing about Hinduism at all. By coincidence I ran into some of her artwork online, and that scared the heck out of me. Then I started reading more about her, and I felt drawn to her...but I was still living with my ex at the time, and she was a Christian who would have gone nuts about it if she'd known. I also still had a fair bit of baggage myself as well about Christianity, so I put what happened with Kali and what I'd read out of my mind again for six months or so.

The last of my former friends was a fundamentalist Christian who I was still in touch with online. Not long after what had happened with Kali, he got in contact with me on MSN and tried to get me to go to some church groups. I wanted to be in contact with him because I didn't have anyone else at the time, but I didn't want to go back to a church and start being condemned again. Because of that, I rejected every invitation he made to me. Finally he gave up and told me that he thought I had become satan's property. When he said that to me, something snapped inside. I think it was mainly because he had had a wife leave him not long before, and I think it was because he was closet gay for as long as I'd known him but had refused to deal with it, and so I felt he was a hypocrite because he was condemning me. I'd also started hanging out with a group of astral projectors online, and practicing what they'd talked about as well...they didn't think anyone had to go to hell who didn't believe in it or want to, and I felt that a few experiments I'd done with their methods had proven that to me too...so the idea of going to hell just didn't cause that much fear for me any more. I think more than anything else, I was just tired of being afraid.

I also, truth be told, hadn't completely given up reading stuff on the Web about Kali. The draw was still there...she was waiting for me. One of the main reasons why coming around to wanting to talk to her took a while for me is because there are a lot of news stories online about people in rural India and Nepal who kill children in blood sacrifice and then claim it's what she wants them to do. I felt awkward about that for a while, cos it's not something I could ever condone myself, but then I started to think that it couldn't be something she really wanted people to do...primarily because of the incredibly positive way in which she seemed to be treating me. I think she gave me some ideas about how to get up the courage to finally leave the bad relationship I was in...I had previously given up, but after that I fought until my ex couldn't stand it any more, and she finally got her own place, and I was able to stop seeing her entirely a few months later, after she finally got all her stuff.

So that's where I am now. I didn't know enough about it to consider converting to Hinduism initially anywayz, and from what I read, a lot of Indians don't want white people doing what they think is hijacking their belief system anywayz, even though it of course doesn't seem as though Kali herself feels like that. Also, a friend of mine started worshipping the Aesir as well, as I've written elsewhere, and I think I spoke to them a bit when we did some sigil work together...and they seemed like really decent types as well. I guess the closest label for me that would fit is eclectic pagan, but for some reason I just don't like that either. I'm still in the process of working it out, I guess. I want to do magic because I've realised it's actually something I've wanted to do all my life, but wouldn't let myself earlier because of guilt. I still struggle with guilt to a degree at times, but it's getting a lot easier these days...although I do still want to hold to a fairly strict ethical model with it.

Right now I'm busy trying to find a ritual framework for banishing and evocation that fits me. I can use the Qabbalistic Cross ok, but some of the other Jewish/Solomonic stuff still triggers the guilt circuits from time to time, and I also don't want to risk offending Kali by using it as well, because I figure Judaism isn't her system at all. I think I'm also worried that the angels you're meant to call on in the LBRP wouldn't want to have anything to do with me for allying with Kali, either...even though I don't know whether she is considered an LHP deity, technically speaking. I hope she isn't, since nothing at all against the LHP people here, but I didn't really want to go that way myself.

From what little I've been able to find though, it seems evocation in particular was the one branch of magic that possibly wasn't practiced in India much...they seemed to focus more on the development of the individual, and to actually view things like evocation as a distraction from that. I admit that from what I've read, evocation does seem to be primarily about asking demons (or angels, as the case may be) to give me goodies of various kinds, and I can certainly see how some people might consider that base and unspiritual. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif)

This post has been edited by Petrus: Dec 15 2007, 10:39 PM

The reason the topic is hard to expain is because wicca, like Christianity, is branched out into different sects. In the world of christianity you have the Catholic faith and then Protestant faiths (Lurtheran, Bapist, Presbyterian, Seventh day adventists, Church of latter day saints etc etc). Like you have different Wiccan faiths - Gardnerian, Alexandrian are consider the "catholic" faiths of Wicca. These are the first two variations of the religion. You also Seax Wicca, which is based losely on old english and Saxon lore. You have Dianic Wiccans in which only females may join and they only worship the Goddess. There is "Celtic" wicca that is a modernized revivalist version of Irish, Scottish and Manx, Welsh and other Celtic traditions. Kemetic Wicca is based on Egyptian magick and lore. And then you have the eclectic wiccans who really don't follow a single path and are not necessarily organized in any solid fashion.

Like Christianity, Wicca is a diverse religion. And it is also "exclusive" in that initiates have to be accepted by a Coven, or Court, basically the equivilant of a congragation at a church. While most people are accepted, those who are viewed as only joining for status or profit or other "unethical" reasons are turned down. As I said you have to be female to join a Dianic coven.

Unlike christianity Wiccan theology is not necessarily set in stone and is open to interpretation. There is no universally accepted wiccan bible. There are some common, mainstream beliefs. The wiccan rede which basically asserts what it means to be a wiccan and is often recited much like the lords prayer at the beginning and end of mass.

Enterance into wicca takes a lot more work than in Christianity. Intiates have to first be accepted by a coven that is certified as being a legitimate tradition stemming from the founding of Wicca. Then intiates must study wiccan doctrine for a minimum of a year and day, traditionally from one winter solstice to the day after the next. This symbolizes rebirth and ties into the Wiccan mythology of the seasons.

Christians only need to profess faith in Christ and be baptized. Christians believe in the holy trinity; father son, holy spirit. Wiccans also believe in the holy trinity - maiden, mother and crone. Unlike the Christian version this ties largely into the cycle of life and death, how we transform from one age to the next. It also represents the tripple nature of the Goddess. The holy trinity also ties into the three wiccan degrees - there are three. Once a person is successfully initiated they are considered a first degree wiccan. These three degrees are known as the threefold way. Which also ties into the threefold law (what you send out magickally comes back threefold, also see karma). Attaining the third degree is the equavilant of gaining enlightenment, it is accompanied by the great rite, symbolizing the union of the God and Goddess.

Most wiccans believe in a supreme God and Goddess, some covens tend to be more matriarchal than others. Covens are usually lead by both a priest and preistess, both serve unique functions within the coven. While wiccan is often viewed as polythiestic, some contend that the supreme God and Goddess are dual aspects from a single diety, all other god forms are manifestations of this being. This being makes up the unity - or singularity of the cosmos from which all else is derived. From this we can see the duality of the universe - male/female gods, good/evil, light/dark. This further leads into the holy trinity, as explained. Then there is the holy quaturnity that deals with the four elements and four seasons.

This leads to the eightfold path which follows the wheel the year. The eightfold path ties deeply into Wiccan mythology. The year is divided into eight, four for the seasons and four more for the summer/winter solstaces and spring/fall equinoxes . Within the year eight festivals are held called Sabbats. Each deals with specific aspects of wiccan mythology. The significance of the eightfold path also deals with the ways in which wiccans may conduct magick practices.

Each full moon is generally when the coven gathers, sometimes called a gathering. These meetings are called esbats. Their function is to serve as a means for members to engage in ritual as well as converge to eat, conduct initiations, discuss politics and so forth.

There are many complex rituals and beliefs in Wicca. Wiccans believe in magick, that is that they can channel natural energies of the elements and cosmos to bring about postive change within those who are in the coven and to their families. Unlike Christianity, WIcca is an ecocentric philosophy. This means that the value of the earth and the environment are reveared more than people and animals (not that people and animals are not important, they are but lesser than the greater Earth). Christianity is an anthropocentric philosophy that basically means the Earth was given to man by God and therefore mankind is more important than the Earth. That it doesn't matter what we do to the environment because eventually the righteous will be raptured at the second comming of christ.

Wiccans can be seen as "superstitious" in many ways. They believe in magickal creatures and that some can be good or bad. Things of nature can bring power and be used in magick, things like feathers, stones, metals, common items like wands, stalves, brooms, knives, swords etc etc have roles in WIccan ritual. Christianity on the other hand is really only superstitious about witchcraft and faiths that are not Christian (or specific faiths for fundamentalists). Wiccans tend to be more open minded and incorperate beliefs that are found in both western and eastern philosophy. Eclectic Wiccans can intiate themselves and pretty much make up their own religion as long as it follows the wiccan rede (Do what you will, least it harm none). As such Wiccans are more open to science that can sometimes contradict theology. This by no means is not every wiccan, but I think more so than Christans.

I can’t agree with the many of the assessments of Wicca and Christianity made as they are not taken from a neutral position. The rancor against Christianity (deserved and not) on many sites and much of the population in the western world at the moment I believe is terribly misplaced. To say Christianity is exclusive of other religions today is completely untrue except by smaller groups. Though the concepts of the Christian Right in the US really is a pain in the rear.

The last Pope was probably the most influential proponent of interfaith dialog, not to mention interfaith education ever in history.

Also in this comparison Wicca, one has to remember that philosophical promotion of a positive way of life. Christianity has it hands down. Islam is the only other Great Religion that really promote the concepts of charity for your fellow man.

As hypocritical as it may seem, the concept of charity mixed with treating all humans with dignity is a very Christian philosophy. Treat others as you would like to be treated, together with offering the other cheek are fundamental and very deep concepts. The offering of the other cheek is not as meek as most think it to be, it is an act of rebellion in a way and at a time that while it seemed to make no sense, it is very effective as the concept.

The great Religions of the East, Buddhism and Hinduism notably but almost all, are big followers of Karma, but not in the way most of us think about it.

“It is his Karma to be starving in the street.” Is something that would be common for someone of the Eastern religions to have said 100 years ago or in many places today. The Exception would be some of the Sages of the religions, but for the most part, Karma is as much about your “fate” as it is your “just deserts”. The treatment of people not family or clan is still questionable in most cases. Christianity to a large degree brought the concept of Charity to the world.

What concept of similar magnitude has Wicca brought?

I am not saying that it needs to have, it is that the weight of Christian Bashing I think has gotten silly and is misplaced. Idiots with small minds, who do not accept outsiders or people who are different has nothing to do with religion. It might be seen as such because it is the only majority religion you know, but it is a common trait among all human societies at a certain stage of development.

It is a leftover or version of territorialism, you see it all over, that it takes religious tones with many people is not because of the religion.

@acid09
I do not understand the following almost at all.

There are many complex rituals and beliefs in Wicca. Wiccans believe in magick, that is that they can channel natural energies of the elements and cosmos to bring about postive change within those who are in the coven and to their families. Unlike Christianity, WIcca is an ecocentric philosophy. This means that the value of the earth and the environment are reveared more than people and animals (not that people and animals are not important, they are but lesser than the greater Earth). Christianity is an anthropocentric philosophy that basically means the Earth was given to man by God and therefore mankind is more important than the Earth. That it doesn't matter what we do to the environment because eventually the righteous will be raptured at the second comming of christ.

Rapture concepts and many other bizarre Christian sect concepts have no historical/scriptural basis, they are recent concepts and held by a small minority of the particular faith. It is like saying young pretty wiccan women must have sex with creepy old sages to attain their next degree/next initiation…(Frost tradition, hopefully no longer the case). While some say the same about purgatory, the rapture is held by a smaller group and is much more recent. I personally think both have no place in the religion…they where just a propaganda ploy to attract more people in my opinion.

Also I have not seen Wicca to be Eco-centric in the way you describe it at all. They are generally eco-aware. But nothing that I have seen, heard, read, been exposed to in any way says it reveres “the earth” more then the residents on it. Many have the goddess concept of Gaia, but that is not by any means the norm or even the majority that hold it higher then other concepts.

The main difference in approach is proselytizing. For most Christians this is something that they should do in order to be in line with their faith. Wiccans and most other religions this is not part or as important of a part of the religion. This one aspect is a huge source of embitterment as well as what I think confuses many people. For some Christians it is expected that if you know of Christ you will become Christian, how can you not…

Lastly, while Christians currently have a terrible reputation when it comes to science and accepting “scientific concepts”, this is not the case with all, and I would venture to say with the Modern Catholics. While evolution is a touchy subject as the Pope has not been clear on it, they teach it in their schools in science class, I don’t think creationism comes up. In fact I think genetics started from a Catholic Monk…now many of their moral views impedes scientific research…but not to the degree often stated. To date I don’t know of anything scientific that truly challenges the integrity of scripture. (This is more of a testament to the Jews then Christians)

It might challenge a lot of beliefs and concepts held, but not those mentioned in scripture to date…and that is in itself pretty shocking, based on the amount written.

Anyway I guess what I am saying is people are people, don’t confuse religion, with the way people act when the things they consider “truth” is challenged. It goes after Egoic concepts and there is a strong resistance there.

Also don’t get sucked in by the masses, and the propaganda no matter where it comes from, think for yourself, analyze, verify and experience as much as you can.

Seeking ones faith, is healthy, don’t worry about trying to fit in anywhere, it is not really a crisis. A crisis of faith is something different. I personally think it is good to try different faiths on for size. In the end most of the “great religions” and their traditions offer huge amounts.

Me…I’m still on the fence, Agnostic theist probably fits best.

@Pertus
Hinduism like Judaism is a religion you pretty much have to be born into, you can marry into or even convert for some, but it is so much about life style and family that to not have historic lineage puts you outside of it.

The caste system is an intrinsic part of the religion…if you are not part of a caste you are not of value in the religion…no reason to spend time with you there. However you can be taught about much of it, and can be taught many profound and colorful magickal practices.

@Pertus
Hinduism like Judaism is a religion you pretty much have to be born into, you can marry into or even convert for some, but it is so much about life style and family that to not have historic lineage puts you outside of it.

Paxx, all I know is that people have been spontaneously having contact/experiences with something that tends to identify itself via characteristics more commonly associated with Kali. I'm not the only person who it's happened to, either...Valkyrie has written about it, and there have been a few other people online that I've read about who've had similar experiences as well. These also weren't people who were ethnic Indians or who were otherwise born into Hinduism. My initial contact with Kali involved imagery that I only learned was associated with her after the fact; I hadn't heard of her before it happened, and that more than anything else is what has caused me to believe that it was real. Valkyrie likewise had something similar happen...she was given words which she hadn't heard before and that didn't make any sense to her at the time, but which she later discovered were associated with Kali.

Maybe it's true that what I've been in contact with isn't the "real" Kali, and I could believe that for the simple reason that whatever entity I've had has behaved in a much more positive manner towards me than what is usually associated with Kali, from what I've read. I haven't had major, disastrous, life changing events. I haven't lost my house, got sick, or had any of the other things happen which are supposed to be associated with contact with Kali, from what I've read. It's been overwhelmingly positive. Her reputation almost universally online is that of a terrible monster...yet my own experience has been almost entirely the opposite...and other than to assume that I'm schizophrenic, I have no explanation for that.

I'd also tend to agree with you that it makes absolutely zero sense for a godform within the Hindu system to be contacting people outside it; India has a population of 1.2 billion people, 83% of which are apparently Hindu, so in terms of raw numbers, it's not like she needs anyone from outside that country...I don't understand that part of it myself either. I'm as white bread Gentile as it gets; my ancestry is English or border Scottish on both sides, and as far as I know there isn't a drop of Indian blood in my veins.

So again...the only thing I know or have been seeing here is that a number of people from a non-Hindu background, including myself, have spontaneously been receiving visual and other impressions of a spirit which if it isn't Kali, for some reason chooses to identify itself using imagery that is normally associated with her, and seems to respond to invocations using that name, as well as offerings from the lists of correspondences that I've found associated with her online. Emotionally speaking, the contact with this entity has also been far more positive than almost anything I experienced while Christian, as well.

The way I see it, there's three possibilities...either I'm mentally ill/delusional to the point of being completely insane, which while being a possibility, I don't believe is the case, or I'm actually still in contact with a being that is truthfully associated with Christianity but has for some reason chosen to disguise itself as Kali...or, the third possibility is that Kali genuinely is who I and said other people have been in contact with.

If the third possibility is the accurate one, that does beg the question...Why is she looking beyond ethnic Indians for followers?

This post has been edited by Petrus: Dec 19 2007, 04:51 AM

@ Petrus
I’m sorry I was not more clear.

I was speaking simply of converting to Hinduism.

Kali is a very powerful archetype that fits very well in today’s culture. There is no reason I can see to not study her and have her as a patron.

As to the motivations of a god…one can never really know.

I always recommend people become enveloped in two or three very different religions. It helps them understand each better, seeing it from many angles. One must dedicate a lot of time to each (5~10 years). In many cases they return to the religion of their tribe, but see it much richer then they had before. Others follow the path of another religion and their life takes an odd turn that they could never have imagined.

Often one has a limited view of their world, and it takes going to a place that appears totally different to see the wonderful things that they always had around them.

I personally would study and learn all I can about Kali both from Neo-pagan views and from Hindu views…then take a seeker role. As a seeker you do not abandon your previose world view, however you practice looking at the world from the perspective of what you are learning. At a certain point you will choose.

One must dedicate a lot of time to each (5~10 years). In many cases they return to the religion of their tribe, but see it much richer then they had before.

I don't really feel that I can go back to Christianity, even if I wanted to...at least not in anything other than a solitary sense. The other Christians I was associating with consistently saw me as evil...no longer being able to tolerate that was one of the main reasons why I started looking at alternatives. I've always been interested in things which, from the orthodox Christian perspective, I shouldn't be...and I think they sensed that.

I personally would study and learn all I can about Kali both from Neo-pagan views and from Hindu views

It's interesting that you mention that...because from what I've been reading, the Hindu Kali and the eclectic neo-Pagan conception of Kali seem in some ways to be enormously different. Mainstream Hindus at least these days seem to see Kali as being almost entirely positive, for the most part. (Although in at least some quarters, the Tantric perspective can apparently still be very dark, from what I'm seeing)

The eclectic view on the other hand is apparently almost entirely the opposite. I'm trying to see her myself from the perspective of more genuine duality...as in, having both positive and negative elements. Personally I don't want to worship a being that is either purely sweetness and light on the one hand, or a complete raging demon on the other. Human beings are more complex than that, so I find it hard to imagine that godforms wouldn't be.

You've given me good advice though...and I certainly don't intend to stop learning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I do not understand the following almost at all.

I guess I better elaborate.

It is like saying young pretty wiccan women must have sex with creepy old sages to attain their next degree/next initiation…(Frost tradition, hopefully no longer the case). While some say the same about purgatory, the rapture is held by a smaller group and is much more recent. I personally think both have no place in the religion…they where just a propaganda ploy to attract more people in my opinion.

That analogy is a gross exageration of what I meant. The last time I checked it was a commonly held belief amungst christains that Jesus will return and when he does it will be the end of the world as we know it and that those who follow Christs teachings will accend to heaven. Maybe its just the difference of where we are but that "rapture" concept is taught in this area. Doesn't mean you have to agree with it though.

Also I have not seen Wicca to be Eco-centric in the way you describe it at all. They are generally eco-aware. But nothing that I have seen, heard, read, been exposed to in any way says it reveres “the earth” more then the residents on it. Many have the goddess concept of Gaia, but that is not by any means the norm or even the majority that hold it higher then other concepts.

What I meant by Wiccan ecocentricism is simply that many revere the earth more so than most Christains. Its an opinion not a statement of fact.

Lastly, while Christians currently have a terrible reputation when it comes to science and accepting “scientific concepts”, this is not the case with all, and I would venture to say with the Modern Catholics.

My point was that in my opinion that many Christains tend to be more secularized than Wiccans. But having known more Chirstains than Wiccans that is a biased statement. And by no means was I talking about ALL Christains or Wiccans. There are those who fit into different places across the spectrum.

Also don’t get sucked in by the masses, and the propaganda no matter where it comes from, think for yourself, analyze, verify and experience as much as you can.

While I agree with you in principle it would seem as though you are ummm "imposing" your ideas a bit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This post has been edited by Acid09: Dec 19 2007, 09:39 PM

What? Me impose my views….never. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

The rapture concept is popular among a lot of groups in Christianity, Korean Catholics I think believe they have to be in church at the time of the “rapture”. Others are less clear on it, and most don’t think it occurs till after the last great battle is fought. Though the “Left Behind” books have made it into something every guy on a pulpit mentions.

But as far as I know, it is something done after we are all pretty much dead anyway. Depending on whose side we where on, we go to heaven or long term prison.

Anyway, I think the question as asked by Auriel was more about describing Wicca to Christians, and speaking in broad strokes about beliefs that most if not all Christians share would not help.

I would love to talk about some of my own odd views on Christians, and all the religions of Abraham. But another time and another place.

I agree Acid, I am pretty sure we fall very much in line as far as our theological views.

There are a number of differences when comparing Wicca and Christianity that haven't been mentioned. Christianity has a single male God-- or three in one, a trinity. Wiccans are polytheistic primarily. Some are hard polytheists, others are henotheistic. Some worship two deities, male and female. They believe that all other deities are aspects of the Horned God and Goddess. I have even met some who believe that the Horned God and the Lunar Goddess are part of a single ultimate divine principle. But Christianity says that their God, Jehovah, is all knowing, and all powerful, while pagan deities, while very powerful and wise, are not all powerful or all knowing. Many pagans think that the gods need humanity in order to exist. Christianity has a miracle working God who works miracles independant of mankind.

Another major difference is that in Christianity they have the concept of an ultimate evil, satan or the devil. Wiccans and neo-pagans see the bad things in the world as sickness or weakness more than evil directed by a evil entity. After death, Christian belief is that you are judged and then either sentenced to hell or rewarded in heaven. Wiccans and neo-pagans generally have a concept of passing on to the summerlands to rest between incarnations. Most of us believe in reincarnation and some form of karma and a goal of falling off the wheel of incarnations.

Paganism is generally seen and practiced as a fertility religion. Christianity doesn't have any similar idea other than the "Be fruitful and multiply" injunction.