Regarding Matters Of Ceremonial Magic/kabbalah, Ceremonial Magic Response to Question Options

The following is an email I received from a gentleman in this forum. I decided to place it in the "Fight Club" after being advised to do so by a Moderator and so here it is.

Yes, what works magically for me can, and will work for everyone else. That is just the way it is and simply cannot be argued. You are dealing with laws here, just like gravity as I have explained before in my other posts. If you take the research findings and apply them yourself, you will see that what I am saying is universal and true! In other words, no matter where you are in the world there is a gravitational pull, and if an item is dropped it will fall.

Why in heaven's name would you think saying that a failed evocation to physical manifestation will cause slingshot effects is pompous of me to say? That's just the way it is, son, and you may still need to experience this terrible reality to come to your senses, and I don't mean this to be rude.

What I write on these forums is what I have experienced by putting into effect Dr. Lisiewski's good advice--this is what I have 'come up' with on my own. I also suggest that the post readers come to know this method of Magic and get rid of the New Age trash that plagues most on this forum (and many times, through no fault of their own).

I cannot be certain, but it is likely your proper state of subjective synthesis was not attained while learning and then using the Kabbalistic Cycles. This technique takes years to learn because of all the books one needs to read to become acquainted with the information that is recommended in the book.

Yes, Old System Magic is dangerous, but one has more of a chance of eliminating the negative factors if it is practiced correctly. However, the improper use of an evocation proper can and will lead you to a world of trouble (remember, the slingshot effects can come and hit you at the worst possible time too). There is a common misconception that it hits you immediately, but I have found that this is not necessarily true. It waits to get you.

The highest and best way to perform an evocation is in the way I speak. There is no point in arguing about it. This is not an issue of 'my ritual is better than your ritual.' Rather, this is an issue of "WHAT WORKS VERSUS WHAT DOESN'T!!" I hope I made that crystal clear to you, because I will NOT explain it again to you.

I am giving you 'advice' but I am not telling you how to 'run your life.' Go and seek advice from the disgruntled individuals who have nothing upon which to hang their hats because of their "sucessess." Do what you want, and as I always write to my New Agers, ALL "power" TO YOU!!!!

You think Dr. Lisiewski is a "quack on crack?" You know not of what you speak and thus are misinformed. I look forward to reading the new university texts he is writing for physics, engineering and science, which, by the way, must go through an extensive process of review. Oh and by the way, it will say Dr. Lisiewski Ph.D.

You have a nice day too.

Mr. Curi

I just want to point out, incase any of you who have read the journals have overlooked that Lisiewski went very briefly into the subject of kabbalah (in its more original forms and in GD versions) in the February 2008 Issue (Number 4). To quote him partly here:

I have found the Golden Dawn system to be valueless in the matter of the Double Letters — and indeed, as a serious system of magic as a whole as I am certain you are aware. I used the Westcott and Kaplan systems at different times, and found both to be quite effective. Normally, I do not liketo switch between systems of correspondences, so as not to ‘mix systems’ or introduce additional variables into the Operation. In this case, however, I have experimentally found such switching to be justified, judging from the results I achieved thereby.

This a reply to a readers question (in fact I wouldn't be surprised if the querent was you, Vagrant Dreamer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) i.e. where Golden Dawn assigns Tav to Saturn, whereas most other kabbalistic works I have read attribute Tav to Luna...at least in the majority, although I believe some major versions do give different attributions too (Mercury or Jupiter I believe, though don't trust me on that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif))

It would seem (although I am not Lisiewski) that although he evidently has alot of fuss and fuming about the 'New Age' and what he views as overall laziness, much of his problem doesn't come with 'my system is the only right system' but rather is much moreso 'STICK TO ONE SYSTEM' and thus has problems with the 'eclectic' methods of many nowadays when they start out at magic...as he goes into above very slightly for his reasoning (which I must agree with in this case, as skipping about certainly never availed me much and wasted alot of my time...but there can be intelligent electism too...perhaps if it is built on a past experience mind you)

Just thought I'd point it out.

I want neither your faint approval or faint dispraise.

What I have written I have written.

I remind those inquiring about the Kabbalah that it acts as merely a framework for Old System Magic. So, in this case Vagrant Dreamer, you are correct. However, I am having some difficulty understanding the question at hand. Clarify it and I will answer it as best I can.

Most Sincerely,

Mr. Curi

What I am asking in essence is how, in your opinion, is the validity of the Kabbalah as put forth by Lisiewski viable and applicable to old system magic, when it is simply one of several variations in use over the nearly 2000 year history of the time period which Lisiewski identifies as the period of Old System Magic. Second to this, I suppose the next question is basically this: How is the use of Golden Dawn Kabbalah, which Lisiewkski specifically identifies as a flawed system, justified as the basis for his kabbalistic analysis and kabbalistic lifecycles, on the premise that systems as such should remain untouched. While he may have spoken about other systems of kabbalah elsewhere - and he did suggest works of Aryeh Kaplan, and for that matter other perspectives on kabbalah which ultimately amount to variations on a theme - he utilizes the Golden Dawn system in his books. If that system is flawed, by his own account, how can the use of that system be justified without explanation? Lisiewski assures his readers there are no 'blinds' in his books, and that may be true or it may itself be a 'blind', just on the basis of his incongruous statements (a classic trick in the old grimoires and other magical texts of the time period identified as Old System Magic as well as some early victorian work).

If it isn't clear enough, what I'm getting at here in essence is that according to my own study and research into the subject, Lisiewski gives an inaccurate portrayal, and subsequently, usage, of the kabbalistic system in both analysis and lifecycles. As I said - the system works anyway. There are few explanations for this beyond the effect of the subjective synthesis utilizing symbols according to the way they are arranged with their own internal consistency. In other words, the symbols themselves become arbitrary, the only constant being the fact that there are symbols which must be apprehended in a way that creates the necessary pathways between the 'inner' and 'outer' worlds on either 'side' of the individual axis.

Put in perspective with the Cube of Space and Adam Qadmons inner and outer space, Lisiewski's approach makes perfect sense. It's when his system of kabbalistic symbolism is applied to it that the 'sense' begins to break down, because he appears to have inherited, or at least put forth, a repeat of the Golden Dawn Kabbalah.

So in your opinion, to reiterate, how is his used of a flawed version of the Kabbalah justified when it is a victorian era version, later in magical history than Old System Magic, according to his own words. Are we to take it that he's double talking, or that his kabbalistic system must be explored, altered, and updated according to personal research and experience?

peace