Karma For The Left Handers Options

I am curious about the kind of Karmic return one gets from causing demonic hauntings?
Has anyone here ever made someone very ill?

I am curious about the kind of Karmic return one gets from causing demonic hauntings?
Has anyone here ever made someone very ill?

What do you mean by "demonic hauntings" exactly?

I'm a Left-Hand-Path magician, and I don't feel I need to pay for any "sins" or "karma". At least not in the bastardized western belief of karma.
Plus I'm not hindu or of any other eastern belief system, so karma does not apply to me. Again, not in the bastardized belief of it.

I have cursed people, and I don't regret it. It comes with practicing magic that eventually you need to curse someone for whatever reason. There's no shame in that, especially not when it comes to self-defense.

altpath, you speak of the "bastardized western belief of karma". I certainly don't disagree, but I'm curious about what it is you believe about karma?

Thorn,

I try not to form an opinion about things I don't understand thoroughly. That's the problem with the western karma. People over here think everything is black and white (good and bad), and they want to break away from their christian upbringing but first need something to fill the gap. Even non-christians feel they need to pay for something, so they adopt a watered down and completely warped belief and call it karma. Wiccans seem to believe in the 3-fold law, which is an even more watered down version of the western karma, LOL.
It's all about filling in the gaps in a persons belief system, IMHO.

Personally though, if I were serious about learning more about true karma, I'd read up first on the original sanskrit meaning of the word, then go and check out the older teachings on it (anything that's over 200 years old should be about right) as defined by various or just one belief system, and then finally form some basic opinion of it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In the meantime I'm perfectly content not studying about it though, since I'm a westerner. I don't feel the need to study something I am not going to practice.

I hope most occultists would agree with my tuppenceworth here, that in general, it is mainly about balance.
The universe tends to balance things out sooner or later; i.e. if somebody persistently uses their powers to harass or harm others without reasonable justification, things begin to go wrong and they often come unstuck. I say reasonable but I know that is subjective, and we have to decide for ourselves what is justified and what is excess malice or greed from within ourselves. In other words, is it genuinely their problem for, or is it in truth our own problem, in the case of curses etc?

I speak from experience, I stand guilty of abusing my powers during the first handful of years I got into magick, and after a point things began to strangely backfire on me. I still use everything I ever learned, don't get me wrong, but I've just learned a bit of discretion and better judgement of what is and what isn't likely to end up backfiring in some way.

You can choose to see it as "God" or whatever, intervening and balancing things out, or you can say the universe is a machine, spiritual worlds included, and that it's just balancing things from a mechanical and not a moral standpoint; i.e. it isn't judging you, it's just maintaining equilibrium between the energies in your sphere of life, impersonally and automatically. Sometimes I can't help favouring the mechanical worldview; it could also help explain the apparrent lack of proper justice in this world, if it's just balancing things; we are very subjective and can't see all weights on the scales.

Karma is more complicated than most westerners understand, I fully agree. I've found that instead of worrying about bad karma, I'm often best trying to be objective and judge as best I can the true fairness of a situation, before I go plunging in with powerful energies or curses. If I think I'm justified, I'll always go ahead.

This post has been edited by redbreast: Aug 12 2008, 10:07 AM

I agree, 'bad karma' as a concept can be loaded with all manner of western Christian-Judaic concepts. And much of that is related to the misuse of power and the consequent (but often semi-conscious) fear and guilt of the consequences of such abuse. That is something we all (in the dominant western traditions) are affected by, to a greater or lesser extent.

But, still, the OP talks about 'demonic hauntings'. I am not entirely sure what the OP is doing. Can you clarify for us here? Perhaps you mean the conjuration of a demon for specific purposes. (Or maybe - although I doubt - it is the haunting of an actual demon.) Assuming the former though, just who/what are you wishing to haunt? And for what purposes? As always, it might be worth looking at your own intentions. The desire for individual power and control is always worthy of investigation, and if you are requesting help from less than reputable sources - well, then: even more pertinent, I suggest. Is a demon's help really going to be more beneficial in dealing with anything? I would love to know why, and how! I know there is a whole separate forum on this site devoted to such work, but would be interested to hear the reasons why one would choose this....

This post has been edited by Trimorphia: Aug 13 2008, 06:18 PM

I have a lengthy essay on Karma, but I wouldn't want to hijack your thread with it.
I smiled when I read "bastardized western belief of karma", personally I think there is also a "bastardized eastern belief of karma" as well... well, technically not 'bastardized', since they invented the term. but 'wrong' nonetheless (in my opinion).

in a nutshell, what I believe is this: that each person has a 'higher self' or a 'holistic self' or a 'true self'... i'm fumbling for exactly the right phrase because different people regard those terms differently. But that there is a quintessential 'you'. And that this quintessential 'you' has a "Will", a "true will" if you will. It is my feeling, that when you act, or even overtly think, in a way which is noticeably incongruent with your true will, your quintessential self... that you do damage to yourself. you end up working contrary to your own resonance as a being, weakening the subtle pattern which is your identity within Aum.

of course this view of karma has precious little to do with 'right & wrong' or any rationally fragile human concept of ethics. and yet it applies in many situations which we don't normally tend to think of as 'sinful'. for example, staying on at a job which is in any way demeaning would be bad karma in my model, whereas few other viewpoints would consider that to be 'wrong', citing hard work & reward and all that. Meanwhile if it is a part of your most holistic nature to tell someone off in a given situation, then failing to do so would be bad karma in my model.

anyway, as for sicking demons on someone, that's not a very nice thing to do. But I don't believe in any moralistic reward-punishment scheme which would chase you down and punish you for it. To me, the only meaningful question is whether or not that act was congruent with your true will?

You can choose to see it as "God" or whatever, intervening and balancing things out, or you can say the universe is a machine, spiritual worlds included, and that it's just balancing things from a mechanical and not a moral standpoint; i.e. it isn't judging you, it's just maintaining equilibrium between the energies in your sphere of life, impersonally and automatically. Sometimes I can't help favouring the mechanical worldview; it could also help explain the apparrent lack of proper justice in this world, if it's just balancing things; we are very subjective and can't see all weights on the scales.

Very true. From what I have learned of the concept of Karma, it seems to be more of an issue where you go into things based on what you do. Allow me to elaborate:

The samurai chooses to live by his sword, therefore he chooses to die by it. Is it because he did evil things that he is struck down? No. It is because he is Samurai. This is their way of life.

The roofer makes his life by working on houses with his hands, therefore if careless, mishaps will happen by means of getting a branch to fall on his head, or he touches a live wire, or falls off... etc.

If you choose to live by (factor (x)), you assume responsibility that should cause and effect mechanisms in the universe come around for you, then what you are and what you do will be the conduits wherein there will be a ripple effect upon which shit happens.

People are unlikely to suffer some mishap unnassociated with their lives. A practicioner of magic is more likely to evoke the ire of an entity than someone who does not practice at all, where the chances of doing so would be next to nil.

Think of it this way: Someone cuts you off, and you flip them the bird. Unbeknownst to you, however, this person really needed to get to the other side of the freeway to make the hospital exit, because the wife is in the back seat in labor. What is outlined in blue may be a factor in why you get pulled over soon for driving fast because you were upset, because the driver of the car that cut you off did not deserve the finger. Did you know? No. Was it possible for you to know? No. Should you flip the bird at all? Debatable, but I argue No. No reason to flip the bird, just back off, and let that person crash, if they truly are driving like an ass for assholishness's sake.

My understanding of Karma sums itself to advice a friend gave me: "Don't be the sucka... just watch from a safe distance, and laugh when the sucka done mess up!!"

I've found that instead of worrying about bad karma, I'm often best trying to be objective and judge as best I can the true fairness of a situation, before I go plunging in with powerful energies or curses. If I think I'm justified, I'll always go ahead.

This is also another very true sense of my understanding thus far of Karma. It seems to run along the lines of "Risk" and "Informed Decision despite situational risk." Minimizing risk is a hallmark of human behavior. When events play out otherwise because of ignorance to factors in initial conditions of a situation, then risk has not been minimized and then you "deserve what's coming to you" because you didn't "Check yo'self before you wreck yo'self."

When people see the risk coming, it becomes "an acknowledged possibility"
When people didn't see it coming, it's blamed on the stars, karma, god, etc...

Karma is just the mechanism by which all possibilities from all factors at play are laid out on a (please excuse my use of the word if it is improper) quantum level, whereupon you choose one assumed on informed decision. If not informed... well, you had it coming. That's Karma. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) *comedy rimshot!*

This post has been edited by Xenomancer: Oct 10 2009, 11:42 AM

Great post Kath, I agree with you on everything you said. I have the same belief of the true will (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) thanks

I'm no expert on karma, but I rather like the description Deepak Chopra gives it in the 1999 talk "God & Buddha" with Robert Thurman (this is available on DVD, I recommend it to anyone interested in Vedanta / Buddhism). He describes karma as "seeds" in the consciousness that actualize around unresolved past situations, creating stories to draw us into events in which we must confront those situations. The implied goal is to uproot these seeds.

I think that if you care at all about karma (whether the legitimate version or a cheap western knock-off), all you need to do is remember that what you do now has future consequences, and if you want to minimize the potentially negative impact, then you try not to make waves.

For the rest of us, adopt a conveniently existentialist worldview and enjoy the ripples. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/oops.gif)

if you want to minimize the potentially negative impact, then you try not to make waves.

For the rest of us, adopt a conveniently existentialist worldview and enjoy the ripples

One cannot traverse the waters without making waves.

If one does not cause waves, are they really going anywhere?

I entered into a state of deep contemplation one time when considering karma, cause, effect, the idea of nirvana, and what actions make what kind of spiritual implications. I know that some religions out there advocate asceticism as the ideal, but then again, are we really living at that point? Death is eternal. We have only so many years to be alive in this timeline, why not enjoy it? If dramas come our way, why not learn to grow from them, and from our grief? As one who has many in psychiatric and psychological fields in his family, I gather that dealing with one's consequences head on is "Accountability" as opposed to walking on spiritual eggshells all your life. Why spend your life lamenting on sins like Christians, when there are more mistakes to make? After all, without mistakes, there is no progress. You can't get a right answer without weeding out the wrong ones, first.

The gain overtime of wisdom through such method, and the accumulation of it is commonly known as "maturity." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif)

Can't tell where you are until you start bumping! Then, we can eventually learn to open our eyes!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

We're in agreement - my statement about "adopting a conveniently existentialist worldview" meant that instead of trying not to make waves, we should simply accept our responsibility for the waves we make and act accordingly.

I'm not much for the ascetic path - actually, I prefer debauchery! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

One cannot traverse the waters without making waves.

If one does not cause waves, are they really going anywhere?

I entered into a state of deep contemplation one time when considering karma, cause, effect, the idea of nirvana, and what actions make what kind of spiritual implications. I know that some religions out there advocate asceticism as the ideal, but then again, are we really living at that point? Death is eternal. We have only so many years to be alive in this timeline, why not enjoy it? If dramas come our way, why not learn to grow from them, and from our grief? As one who has many in psychiatric and psychological fields in his family, I gather that dealing with one's consequences head on is "Accountability" as opposed to walking on spiritual eggshells all your life. Why spend your life lamenting on sins like Christians, when there are more mistakes to make? After all, without mistakes, there is no progress. You can't get a right answer without weeding out the wrong ones, first.

The gain overtime of wisdom through such method, and the accumulation of it is commonly known as "maturity." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif)

Can't tell where you are until you start bumping! Then, we can eventually learn to open our eyes!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I dont see how you guys associate karma with anything christian, since most of them believe they can do evil and be forgiven right after if they pray it off or benifits there church, and the fact that its eastern belief in origin. if karma is real and i believe it is(a universal law thingy), maybe you wont see the effects right away as time is an illusion for the most part, but you will know it when it comes back to you as things go back to the original source eventualy.

I dont see how you guys associate karma with anything christian, since most of them believe they can do evil and be forgiven right after if they pray it off or benifits there church, and the fact that its eastern belief in origin.

Well I think they're associating Karma with Christian beliefs is because one of the main themes in Christianity is that if you do bad things you will be punished (i.e. go to Hell) and if you do good things you'll be rewarded (i.e. go to Heaven), and the Western interpretation of Karma is the same basic idea - do evil and you will be punished, do good deeds and you will be rewarded. And yes, it's Eastern in origin, but the Karma spoken about in Western culture is often our interpretation of it, one which is based on a (generally) limited understanding of the Eastern belief in Karma.

Personally, I'm more into the Egyptian idea of Ma'at, which is essentially that everything that happens must be balanced in some way, lest the world fall out of balance and chaos descend upon it.

Going back to the original post, I personally believe that if you act in a particularly unbalanced way (not necessarily good or evil) that balance will eventually be restored in one way or another, so if you have to create some kind of inbalance make sure you don't leave yourself open to some nasty surprises!

interestingly there is not "a real eastern version" of karma... there are in fact many eastern interpretations of karma... and not all of them reflect any more enlightenment than our western "universal fairness police pixies" version. Some are quite a bit more philosophically interesting though, just not 'all' of them.

interestingly there is not "a real eastern version" of karma... there are in fact many eastern interpretations of karma... and not all of them reflect any more enlightenment than our western "universal fairness police pixies" version. Some are quite a bit more philosophically interesting though, just not 'all' of them.

Ah! Well you learn something new every day. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Ah! Well you learn something new every day. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

hehe, the oldest version of "karma" is really a 'social control mechanism' built into hinduism. It basically reinforces people's cooperation and complacency in their social class, under the understanding that if they fulfill their role well, they'll get reincarnated into a higher class in their next life. India, incidentally, has one of the worst cases of class segregation (poverty living alongside opulent wealth) in the world. It's kinda like capitalism, except if you form a union or tell your boss off, you'll never get to nirvana.

'Karma' literally means 'action', and it represents any action of the individual. 'Amount' of your karma does not depends on that how 'good' or 'bad' your actions are, it depends on that how much you are attached to your actions, how much you are attached to every your thought, experience, this 'reality' (subjective and objective) in general. Its all about your state of consciousness, and your connection with your Higher Self, and True Will, not about some automatic justice mechanism of the universe. So it doesn't matter if you are even mass murderer, you can have a 'good' karma. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

The thing with Karma is that it isn't "good" or "bad" exactly. What it is, is the tendency of energies to attract like energies, similar to magnetism except that with magick positive attracts positive etc. When you project an energy, whether it be positive or negative (chances are however it is a mixture of both) it gathers other like energies as it travels through the universe. Since this energy is your energy, it belongs to you and will eventually "come home", when it does it is still attached to the other energies, which amplifies the effects. Funny thing is; it may take months, years, or maybe even a decade before that energy returns (its all relative to the intent and level of power). However, there is no black and white about it, its merely about how you take it. Did you believe it was bad when you did it? that sort of thing.

Anyway, happy to hear about the 'inner god' being discussed out there, and true will. Reminds me of reading Crowley

Btw, demons don't always like to be tolled what to do..... piss one off and Karma might be the leas of your troubles.

This post has been edited by Mephilis: Jan 29 2014, 12:18 AM

Very true. From what I have learned of the concept of Karma, it seems to be more of an issue where you go into things based on what you do. Allow me to elaborate:

The samurai chooses to live by his sword, therefore he chooses to die by it. Is it because he did evil things that he is struck down? No. It is because he is Samurai. This is their way of life.

The roofer makes his life by working on houses with his hands, therefore if careless, mishaps will happen by means of getting a branch to fall on his head, or he touches a live wire, or falls off... etc.

If you choose to live by (factor (x)), you assume responsibility that should cause and effect mechanisms in the universe come around for you, then what you are and what you do will be the conduits wherein there will be a ripple effect upon which shit happens.

People are unlikely to suffer some mishap unnassociated with their lives. A practicioner of magic is more likely to evoke the ire of an entity than someone who does not practice at all, where the chances of doing so would be next to nil.

Think of it this way: Someone cuts you off, and you flip them the bird. Unbeknownst to you, however, this person really needed to get to the other side of the freeway to make the hospital exit, because the wife is in the back seat in labor. What is outlined in blue may be a factor in why you get pulled over soon for driving fast because you were upset, because the driver of the car that cut you off did not deserve the finger. Did you know? No. Was it possible for you to know? No. Should you flip the bird at all? Debatable, but I argue No. No reason to flip the bird, just back off, and let that person crash, if they truly are driving like an ass for assholishness's sake.

My understanding of Karma sums itself to advice a friend gave me: "Don't be the sucka... just watch from a safe distance, and laugh when the sucka done mess up!!"
This is also another very true sense of my understanding thus far of Karma. It seems to run along the lines of "Risk" and "Informed Decision despite situational risk." Minimizing risk is a hallmark of human behavior. When events play out otherwise because of ignorance to factors in initial conditions of a situation, then risk has not been minimized and then you "deserve what's coming to you" because you didn't "Check yo'self before you wreck yo'self."

When people see the risk coming, it becomes "an acknowledged possibility"
When people didn't see it coming, it's blamed on the stars, karma, god, etc...

Karma is just the mechanism by which all possibilities from all factors at play are laid out on a (please excuse my use of the word if it is improper) quantum level, whereupon you choose one assumed on informed decision. If not informed... well, you had it coming. That's Karma. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) *comedy rimshot!*

you know, that would be right, yes there is the law of return, but when its all boiled down to it, for every action there is an exact reaction, you do bad things, chances are your environment or those around you are going to dole out the consequence for your actions. A criminal will eventually be caught by the police, a feebleminded idiot will eventually do something really dumb and get themselves either badly hurt in a darkly humorous manner or killed by their own poor choices in actions, and thus karma could be more based on cause and effect rather than the "bastardized western concept of karma" being something that would chase you down and punish you for your bad deed.