Conscience, Define it! Options

With so many religions in the world, it is sometimes hard to pick a choice between these religions. IMHO, everyone should have only one religion, the religion of conscience and positive actions.

Can anybody give your own definition of conscience please? I have not been able to define and put my own definition into words (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I personally do not feel guilty unless I make myself feel that way.

That said, I have my moral code, now enshrined in my sig below (which means I often spend a bit of time thinking before I react to things). I think perhaps the very last point it makes might be the glimmerings of what a conscience is. The urge to take actions that create positive change.

I also punish myself through my conscience. At times it can be quite restricting. I thought of a quote last week due to some feelings I was having, "knowledge is like a plague, a disease". As I was coming to an abrupt end of something that started out hard, became pleasant, and ended up ugly (in regards to how certain person treated me). I could not act no way, not even defend myself against the psychic attack as my conscience was so strong that I should let the person be in hopes that he will see my pain and change a bit or see the truth of things. As such, I became very upset and even as far as depressed until I made the decision that I was going to again take up magick.


conscience, it is rather Hard defining it, the best I could say is right and wrong. (not to be confused with good & evil please)

...sig below (which means I often spend a bit of time thinking before I react to things). 

The last words on that sentence caught my attention and reminded me how we all are automated to behave.

react... when we're given a situation when we supposed to Act (choose), we often found ourself easier to Re-Act a set of programmed commands from our memory, things we learned from childhood which had been embedded in our subconscious from our parents and environments.

Now, no wonder some people (terrorists, cold blooded killers etc) does not seem to have a "concience" since nobody insert enough "good" command lines into their memory when it is still a white blank canvas. What if a child's concience were filled with "twisted logic"?

Isn't consciences is simply a set of complex programs which been put in our minds which tells us to think, behave and re-act within a socially (or politically) accepted moral codes?

"to kill an infidel is a road to heaven"
"kill or get killed"
"it is not a lie, a sin, or crime if done for a good purpose... for whose benefits and loss?"

We sometimes will find ourself to re-act against our conscience, which naturally inserting a conflicting command into our system of memory - punishing ourself with self created demons, depressions and all kinds of sadoism.

Who gets to decide who's right and who's wrong?
Conscience... a tool within us to create or to destroy?

hmmm... I'm complicating things here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

I don't necessarily think of that as a bad thing.

Not a half hour ago I had to catch myself before attempting to send several million people to their bloody deaths at the hands of civil war and starvation (not that it would have worked anyway, since I doubt Bush is QUITE gullible enough to support walling off America from the rest of the world, but that's another discussion all together).

Really we have two competing impetuses - self-protection and self-interests vs indoctrinated selflessness.

The first is actually self-destructive in the long run given that it is not conducive to a social being, while the second is possibly self-destructive in the shorter term (being a potential cause of self abasement).

Which would you prefer?

I find that my social life improves as i diminish my self.
A selfless man can be compared to a puppet. Running automated by his true will. Thus he always acts natural in any environment.

Without the ego there is nothing else than the true will, and it is not the true wills intention to destroy the body, or to become a martyr, unless you are jesuz...
You are confusing a selfless man with some priest. Being selfless does not mean constantly thinking about doing good for others, it means not thinking.

conscience is nothing but self limiting behavior. It should not be a religion. Consciense is needed for people with big egos, so that they do the right thing eventually, because they would feel guilty otherwise. If you need a reason like that to be good, then you are misguided in your beliefs.

A egoless and selfless man does not need guilt to force an apology or to do the "right" thing, since he has no valid reason to do otherwise. He does not make decisions anyway. And there is no ego to hurt either.
He has no forks in his river and can only flow downstream where his will goes. Downstream there are not many forks, the river only gains momentum as it swells. Until it becomes the sea.

This post has been edited by A_Smoking_Fox: Feb 7 2006, 01:58 PM

Not to start a conflict here but I find that to have 'true will' is to have an ego. If there is no self there can be no will. Even the will to live is predicated on the being having a sense of self (ego) to protect themselves! The journey to rise above ego is to realize oneness with all and this causes the dissolution of that ego...and, btw, death of body is soon to happen/follow. Our great lesson should be, perhaps, to learn to recognize ourselves for who and what we are and how we can all coexist in harmony. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)

hehe, i cannot say if that is true or not. I'm not all knowing.

But be carefull that you do not confuse the true will with some factor of your mortal brain.
If you identify yourself with your own common mind, wich can be manipulated by drugs and age, then you are right that the true will requires an ego. But i don't believe i am my mind, or my body. The brain rots when the body dies, the true will exists in the higher self.

Either way, much of this is speculating and logical thinking. To each his own philosohpy, this is mine and i am quite happy with it. But that may evenually change, and so may my mind. After all, it will get older and rot, so who knows what it will believe next?

LOL!
I think that most would agree that my mind has rotted away with my body! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fie.gif)
But seriously...
The idea of a 'true will' was engendered by someones mind which was fortuitously attached to a real, living body and, hence, able to be written down and discussed by all us philosophers! I am also of the belief that there exists a 'higher self' (there's that word again -self) and by meditation or whatever we are able to discover our 'true will'. It matters not if we agree or not...I still respect your opinion and philosophy. I would further the discussion with the question of - what is your definition of 'true will'? I suspect that it may involve alot of similar rhetoric that one uses when one tries to explain or define diety. A veritable guagmire!

...sig below (which means I often spend a bit of time thinking before I react to things). 

The last words on that sentence caught my attention and reminded me how we all are automated to behave.

react... when we're given a situation when we supposed to Act (choose), we often found ourself easier to Re-Act a set of programmed commands from our memory, things we learned from childhood which had been embedded in our subconscious from our parents and environments.

Now, no wonder some people (terrorists, cold blooded killers etc) does not seem to have a "concience" since nobody insert enough "good" command lines into their memory when it is still a white blank canvas. What if a child's concience were filled with "twisted logic"?

Isn't consciences is simply a set of complex programs which been put in our minds which tells us to think, behave and re-act within a socially (or politically) accepted moral codes?

"to kill an infidel is a road to heaven"
"kill or get killed"
"it is not a lie, a sin, or crime if done for a good purpose... for whose benefits and loss?"

We sometimes will find ourself to re-act against our conscience, which naturally inserting a conflicting command into our system of memory - punishing ourself with self created demons, depressions and all kinds of sadoism.

Who gets to decide who's right and who's wrong?
Conscience... a tool within us to create or to destroy?

hmmm... I'm complicating things here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

I think right and wrong has a lot to do with Truth. A universale truth, not individual truth!

Individual: I dislike apples, they are gross. (Perception & Opinion)

Universale: the apple is red (real)

But as you see the terrorists, sometimes even claim the apple is brown, beyond logic.

Ill go ahead and add something else, the biggest barrier it seems to determining right and wrong in most cases is knowledge. We simply dont know everything which can be quite difficult at times to come a reasonably sound decision.

Abortion is a good example I can think of. Many argue about when a human becomes human. Im more interested in when the soul/spirit enters body though. That type of knowledge simply isnt expressed, and what a shame it is.

I would further the discussion with the question of - what is your definition of 'true will'? I suspect that it may involve alot of similar rhetoric that one uses when one tries to explain or define diety. A veritable guagmire

you would be correct.
I do not even know yet what my true will is. Somethimes i think i am living it, and sometimes i am not. But whenever i try to understand or grasp it i seem to fail. It is as if i understand it as long as i do not try to put it into name. As soon as my mind tries to grasp my true mind i get confused. Isn't this obvious when something small tries to contain a bigger and superior thing.

I think right and wrong has a lot to do with Truth. A universale truth, not individual truth!

Individual: I dislike apples, they are gross. (Perception & Opinion)

Universale: the apple is red (real)

But as you see the terrorists, sometimes even claim the apple is brown, beyond logic.

Are you certain the apple is red. If i teach my children from birth that what you define as red is actually blue, they will think the sun is blue, and apples too.
There is not even an apple, so how can it have a color?

This post has been edited by A_Smoking_Fox: Feb 9 2006, 08:27 AM

I would further the discussion with the question of - what is your definition of 'true will'? I suspect that it may involve alot of similar rhetoric that one uses when one tries to explain or define diety. A veritable guagmire

you would be correct.
I do not even know yet what my true will is. Somethimes i think i am living it, and sometimes i am not. But whenever i try to understand or grasp it i seem to fail. It is as if i understand it as long as i do not try to put it into name. As soon as my mind tries to grasp my true mind i get confused. Isn't this obvious when something small tries to contain a bigger and superior thing.

I think right and wrong has a lot to do with Truth. A universale truth, not individual truth!

Individual: I dislike apples, they are gross. (Perception & Opinion)

Universale: the apple is red (real)

But as you see the terrorists, sometimes even claim the apple is brown, beyond logic.

Are you certain the apple is red.

Yes, quite certain, and if you dost not see this, then you need to see a doctor.

If i teach my children from birth that what you define as red is actually blue, they will think the sun is blue, and apples too.

It will also be wrong, I know what red is, everyone else knows the color red, as do you know the color red. You make no sense

There is not even an apple, so how can it have a color?

What You mean to say is there is nothing in comparison to greater things like that of free will being the best example I can think of. Nothing else matters beyond the point of the choice. The choice and the freedom to choose is what matters most, not the creation or result of the choice, it is like illusion, but at the same time its not. It is a sort of manifestation.

I am no fool, take your dead end philosophies elsewhere

EDIT: I realize I acted harshly, but I also acted in truth, and the truth sometimes hurts. It is said that the will is love, I see this is true, love also sometimes hurts.

I do not take lightly ones who try and obscure this truth and hide it. I take what I can, and I now take authority to give advice. Be wary. Be wary of hidden truths, ones who obscure. Be wary of crap philosophies and beliefs, Be wary of perceptions and opinions, those of your own and external.

I do not know what to expect of this, even so may be beginner magician, but am well trained in other arts and have many friends both of this world and others

This post has been edited by Oath: Feb 9 2006, 08:55 AM

I am no fool, take your dead end philosophies elsewhere

lol, i am certain that you are no fool. Perhaps my philosohpies are dead end, as you claim.
It is obvious that an apple is red, true. As in physics and the wave lengths of colors.
At basis it is just a word, in my language an apple isn't red, its called something else.
And even more so, not all apples are red, some are yellow or green.
Still, as far as my mindset goes, i still believe the apple does not exist, but that is beyond the scope of this topic, so i shouldn't have bothered you with it.

Anyway, i never said you where a fool... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I think right and wrong has a lot to do with Truth. A universale truth, not individual truth!

Individual: I dislike apples, they are gross. (Perception & Opinion)

Universale: the apple is red (real)

But as you see the terrorists, sometimes even claim the apple is brown, beyond logic.

Just to add some commentary the "Apple is red" is not a statement of Universal Truth. It is also a matter of perception. The apple does not embody the characteristics of red in and of itself. The realization that it is red is defined by your perception. You are seeing an object that is absorbing all wavelengths of light except for red. In the same way an orange is actually blue and what you perceive is the reflection of light of the waves it does not absorb. If you want to discuss a universal truth, you are going to have a difficult time. I know this is probably degenerating into hair splitting but "The apple is red" is a shared idea through experience. As it is discovered by experience and not embodied in the object itself it is not a Universal Truth.

It is not a Universal Truth that the Apple is red, it is Knowlege conceived a posteriori i.e. from sensory perceptions.

This is always going to be a problem when trying to define right and wrong in relation to universal and individual truth. On this plane at least all knowledge is known a posteriori. Ideas on this are always going to be based on perception and are therefore not Universal Truths.

If I might add what I feel is a definition of conscience. "An individual's previously recognized ethical principles, formed both from experience and personal examination which when violated, create feelings of guilt."

Since one's conscience is formed by the individual it can vary greatly although many are shared by large amounts of society. Right and wrong are judgments made a posteriori (see above) and therefore cannot be proven or considered Universal.