A few simple questions., :) Options

Firstly, I'd like to ask if anyone has read, and approves the book "Enochian Magic For Beginners" By Donald Tyson since I'd like to start reading on enochian magic. Second, Reffering to the Enochian in the back of the mathers version of the goetia, and the Schemhamephorash angels in "The Book Of Solomons Magick", if one was to evoke one of the angels, would one use the streamline goetic setup, with the basic goetic order of rituals with the enochian conjurations in the back of the mathers goetia, or would one need to use more of an Enochian apporach? Pardon if by any chance this is all answered in other topics, I didn't see, and feel free to lock this up if it is, but if not any answers would be appreciated.

-Chris.

I've read Tyson's book, and although I think it has some excellent material in it, I think titling it "for beginners" was a real misnomer. Tyson has very novel theories abou the system and does a good job of including all the pieces (not just the Golden Dawn bits). Its just terribly dense and requires a very good background in High Magic. I got the book a couple of years ago and was mystified to a great extent by it. Now I'm understanding a lot more of it but there are still parts that confuse me.

Since then, I've tried reading it, and it confuses the hell out of me. I'd like to learn more about enochian, but I have to say, it intimidates me. lol.

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux

Geoffrey Jame's Enochian evocation for beginners is by far the BEST book on Enochian! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Also www.nightshademagic.com/enochian of course <g> The book that was written ages back, and chapters of it put up online. Not edited yet thogh. Also, Ben Rowe's work is good Oh yeah Tyson, it's alright. The actual Enochian info is good, the crap about the apocoypse, well that is in all of his books, just skp that chapter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, doing Goetia style evoation would not go over well with the EE's! An Enochian specific ritual, doing the calls etc. ismore appropriate and works far better. Btw, Crowley's Enochian is GOlden Dawn Enochian, which doesn't have all that much to do with Enochian unfortunatly.

If you haven't been to this site check it out, it has a number of good overviews and in-depth stuff too.

http://www.hermetic.com/

Especially check out the Rowe section and Enochian miscellany.

I am the first to admit that I am far from having a deep understanding of Enochian, if that's possible, basically enough to function within the system.

One conclusion I have come to is that a fair amount of the original material arrives in the form of diaries, unedited records of the operations, and random scraps of paper. It doesn't appear to me that Dee had actually finished the whole reception of the system and he definitely didn't have time to flesh it out into finshed idea.

Tyson is pretty good, I haven't read James though I should.

I just try to read anything on Enochian. Even if I think it totally sucks and is illogical in some ways I think that is reassuring. If I am able to take issue with an author I feel that I have at least reached the point where I have enough of a grasp of the ideas to look at it critically.

Geoffrey Jame's Enochian Evocation is certainly one of the better books on the subject.

For some interesting material try the Schuelers webpage. Their Enochian Tarot is a nice addition to the system, a lot of people use it for path working.

http://www.schuelers.com/enochian/

Thank you, Ekron, and CC37 for those links. Athena, I can't seem to find that book to buy! I don't trust ebay so I never search there, but out of there I can't find the book!

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux

You should find it s/h on:

http://www.abebooks.com

This post has been edited by Ekron: Feb 19 2006, 05:37 PM

If you haven't been to this site check it out, it has a number of good overviews and in-depth stuff too.

http://www.hermetic.com/

Especially check out the Rowe section and Enochian miscellany.

I am the first to admit that I am far from having a deep understanding of Enochian, if that's possible, basically enough to function within the system.

One conclusion I have come to is that a fair amount of the original material arrives in the form of diaries, unedited records of the operations, and random scraps of paper. It doesn't appear to me that Dee had actually finished the whole reception of the system and he definitely didn't have time to flesh it out into finshed idea.

Tyson is pretty good, I haven't read James though I should.

I just try to read anything on Enochian. Even if I think it totally sucks and is illogical in some ways I think that is reassuring. If I am able to take issue with an author I feel that I have at least reached the point where I have enough of a grasp of the ideas to look at it critically.

Yes it is all diary notes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It does seem to be a pretty complete system, well as complete as the GD is for example...
However the problem isn't that Dee didn't have time to complete it,t he problem is that many diarynotes were used to wrap fish and were burned in the fire (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) So who knows what is missing and what isn't! Good thing the EEs are very talkative

It does seem to be a pretty complete system, well as complete as the GD is for example...
However the problem isn't that Dee didn't have time to complete it,t he problem is that many diarynotes were used to wrap fish and were burned in the fire (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) So who knows what is missing and what isn't! Good thing the EEs are very talkative

This may be off topic but I'll disagree with this part.
1. Yes many parts of the diary was lost.
2. What is present has as much depth and usually much more than any other system

This transmissions were not completed though. I consider any Angelic interaction Dee has obtained to be part of the Enochian system.

summarizing
On July 09,1607
Raphael appears and tells Dee that if he undertakes a long journey he will receive the secrets of the Philosophers Stone and the book of St. Dunistan[?]. He spends the next few weeks planning and dies within a few months. That to me seems not enough time to receive it.

The fact that Kelly and him had slowed down work but not ended it when they have the wife-swap incident seems to cause some problems too.
After this he uses his son and seems to try rent a scryer so it seems he still had things he wanted to get done.

This doesn't negate the fact that the system is immense, I don't beleive their are "holes" as some have declared. But to receive the last books he is meant to go to Basilae or germany (can't remember, at work) so that points to incomplete.

I guess it justs seems so...scattered to me. I'm used to everything being put out like instructions on how to build something then, why what goes where on the back of the book, I don't know if that makes sense. I'm not lazy, I'll be happy to bit together what to do..But there is so much BS, and diversity that I'm lost. lol.

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux

A major part of it is that Dee was mainly recording his own and (kelly's) experiences. It's not like later ideas that were completely compiled and laid out for another to use. It's the difference between Crowley's diaries and Magick in Theory and Practice.

You might want to take the time to read a good Dee biography or two, I would especially recommend "The Queen's Conjurer." Can't remember the author but I'm sure amazon lists it. Ask later if you can't find it.

I think a large amount of the system is wrapped up in the things that Dee was involved in of course. I see as the biggest influences on him as
1. The Arbatel
2. Alchemy
3. His own Hieroglyphic Monad.
4. Euclidean Geometry
5. The Hermetica.

There are some drawbacks on the Golden Dawn based system and Athena may back me up here. They rely heavily on the G.D. system of correspondences--the elements, zodiac, color scales, egyptian hierarchy, etc...

It fits in and works but it pretty much creates ideas seperate from Dee's. I wish I had known this when I first got into enochian but I found it through the Golden Dawn materials. It definitely works, well, but at times it overcomplicates things and to get back to the source you have to unlearn some standard G.D. dogma.

Well good luck, it nice to see these things discussed.

Meh, I try to stay away grom anything golden dawn lol, but I guess it's inevitable if I tend to actualy practice enochian magic in the future.. I'll have to scrape together what I can find online, since I just spent about $400.00 on other materials, and books, and the book that Athena suggested cost about $100-$150, well, those are the prices I've seen. I guess I'll have to put enochian on hold for a while but I'll definitely come back to this topic, and look up the suggestions when I feel comfortable spending another large amount of money on books. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions, and help.

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux

Geoffrey Jame's Enochian Evocation is certainly one of the better books on the subject.

For some interesting material try the Schuelers webpage. Their Enochian Tarot is a nice addition to the system, a lot of people use it for path working.

http://www.schuelers.com/enochian/

As long as you don't mind that it does not match with the original Dee/kelly diaries, or any other Enochian to speak of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Athena

I guess it justs seems so...scattered to me. I'm used to everything being put out like instructions on how to build something then, why what goes where on the back of the book, I don't know if that makes sense. I'm not lazy, I'll be happy to bit together what to do..But there is so much BS, and diversity that I'm lost. lol.

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux

there are many systems of magic put neatly into tables and easy to read books for people, however these systems are so watered down it is not funny. So I am not sure if the fact it isn't is a bad thing. Btw, perhaps check out my website I have put a lot of it into tables, well ok maybe my book that is being edited, the tables didn't transfer over to hmtl like they should have (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Athena

Meh, I try to stay away grom anything golden dawn lol, but I guess it's inevitable if I tend to actualy practice enochian magic in the future.. I'll have to scrape together what I can find online, since I just spent about $400.00 on other materials, and books, and the book that Athena suggested cost about $100-$150, well, those are the prices I've seen. I guess I'll have to put enochian on hold for a while but I'll definitely come back to this topic, and look up the suggestions when I feel comfortable spending another large amount of money on books. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions, and help.

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux

You deifnatly do NOT have to look into GD to practice ENochian! Actually, I regularly recommend against it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
One reason Enochian is so confusing to people is that they usually (fortunatly you aren't one of them) are trying to relate it to GD or other types of modern magic. It is different, much different Do you see any banishings or circles in their work? No. It is more along the lines of older magics as Chaoscrowley points out.

The how to of practicing enochian? Well I have a loose system on my site, but aside from that I recommend you start with the 19 day working, then work with the EEs. That is how Enochian is worked, with the EEs. NOt just calling the in the quarters of your temple and calling it good, I mean WORKING with them. Skry them up, travel the aethyres. *THey* will teach you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Better then any damn book on the topic! There are copies of a true and faithful relation online, but that might just confuse you further as well. With Tyson's book, it is actually a good book on the topic (just ignore his personal theories). Just read that over about 20 times and it will all start to make sense. Also, finding someone who practices Enochian (not me though I am way too busy!) to teach you really helps. I was *very* fortunate about 10 years ago and had 2 experts teaching me the topic!

Also, questions about Enochian you have, just ask on the forums, people will answer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Athena

I've seen your 'book' online a few times when I went to order a few things, but in other posts on this forum you've stated that it wasn't done, but I guess it's done enough for me to go over and read it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif). As for finding teachers, asside from not know any other magicians whatsoever in person at this time, the last teacher I had when I was first starting out tried too much for me to have their beliefs, so I kicked 'em to the curb, and haven't been too kein on the idea of teachers since. :-p. I'll definitely read what you have up on your site, thanks.

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux