Golden Dawn and hypnosis, An interesting argument Options

Hello yall! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I am sorry that I have not been as present on this forum as much as I would like to be. It is a very busy time for me: moving, doing a writing marathon, etc. But I do think this place is great.

Anyway, I have gotten into a very fascinating argument with a moderator on another forum. I wish to post it here, because I am interested in what you all think, and what your opinions are.

Here is how it started:

Hello out there,

I am a beginner at self-hypnosis, and am also a beginner student of the spiritual practice known as the Golden Dawn. I recently had the inspiration to combine the two by making a "hypnosis script" of an extremely important and vital ritual in the tradition, called the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram. It is used to clear negative energy from the space (as well as from the mind), connect with the divine source, and call on the presence of the four archangels for spiritual protection.

However, this is the first time I have ever written a script, and I really know very little about it. I understand that it is best to word things in a way that the subconscious will comprehend, and not react to or misinterpret. However, having no training in NLP or hypnotherapy, I am just going by instinct, and my own skills in writing.

I was wondering if anyone on this forum, who is more qualified, and interested in my project, can please give me some feedback and constructive criticism. Any suggestions will help. I am still in the process of writing it, and if there are some with more exp. than I, and are willing to help, then I will post my first draft on this thread (as a note, almost all my induction will be lifted from William Hewitt's Self-Hypnosis).
Thanks,
Mica

And so his response:

Well, I have a little knowledge of both systems. Are you aware that in the Neophyte initiation ritual of the Golden Dawn, something you participate in before doing any work including the LBRP, you take a vow which includes not allowing yourself to be hypnotized?

How do you justify breaking an oath? Why do you think adding hypnosis to a system that has worked fine for over 115 years without hypnosis will be a benefit?

And my retort:

Well Don,

I am aware of that oath, but I have never taken it, and I can "justify" what I am doing for several reasons.

First of all, I am sure you are quite wrong about having to perform the Neophyte Initiation prior to practicing the LBRP. On the contrary, it is required that one have an understanding of alchemical and esoteric symbolism, AND an experiential understanding of the LBRP and even, I think, the LBRH, before taking the Initiation. Otherwise, what would be the point of taking an Initiation into something one knows very little about. It is an "Initiation" after all, not a granting of permission.

Second, when one is meditating, doing rhythmic breathing and going into deep relaxation, one of the main reasons is to enter into an alpha brain-wave state which, I believe, is absolutely necessary for spiritual practice. The only difference between that and hypnotic induction is that the process is guided, using the speech (whether it be your own pre-recorded voice, or another's voice). Therefore, I am really not changing, or "adding" anything. All I'm doing is using another's pre-recorded voice to assist in deepening my focus and relaxation in order to aid in channeling the energy. I really don't see the harm in that. Personally, at this point, I need to be guided along, as I have a lot of trouble with maintaing focus on the visualizations and on entering in that meditative state.

So what is it exactly that you are protesting against? My best friend is an Adeptus Minor in the OTO, and has taken that oath. From what he understood, the oath is not exactly prohibiting hypnosis altogether, but forbids surrendering your will to another, and being in the vulnerable position where you will divulge the secrets of the order, and your own secrets. I can understand that. But as I know exactly what is to happen, having written the script myself, and that it is self-hypnosis (which, as I said, is essentially no different then simple meditation) I am not really surrendering my will to anyone, am I?

When I do take that vow, I will still practice hypnosis and self-hyponsis, but I will always be diligent in not letting myself get into the position I described.
And when it really comes down to it, no one has the right to forbid me from expanding my own mind; and if it helps me, without bringing harm to anyone, then its welcome. I don't blindly follow other people's dogma without question.

His turn:

Hi, Mica.

If you have a copy of Regardie's The Golden Dawn, you will see notes, an introduction, and an index. They were all written by friends of mine. I also happened to know Regardie. So respectfully, I think I know what I'm talking about.

If you read the GD Neophyte initiation ritual, you will see that the initiate is to be given "a manuscript lecture in these subjects" in which he or she will be tested before moving on to the Zealator degree. This is the "First Knoweldge Lecture" which includes all of the information you have described, including the LBRP. In other words, a person was not supposed to study this information until after initiation. Remember, initiation comes from words meaning to start. The initiation ritual is the start of the studies. You do the work, and when you can prove you know it, you get the next initiation into a new set of information. I would also suggest that initiation is most definitely not about playing in circles with things you know, rather, it is about a shock to the system, to move you in a new direction. It's about enlightenment, no knowledge. I hope, someday, that you may experience such an initiation, perhaps in a fully decorated GD temple.

I would respectfully suggest that alpha and hypnosis are not the same thing. While hypnotized, a person can produce brainwave patterns of alpha, theta, delta, etc. Relaxation and focus have nothing to do with hypnosis, although some use them as part of indicution.

I'm not protesting anything. I'm merely pointing out that if you want to do GD work, do GD work. If you want to do hypnosis, do hypnosis. The OTO is not the GD, so I don't see the meaning of your relationship.

You're absolutely correct. You're free to do whatever you wish. Nobody is forbidding you from doing anything. If you want to do something that is "sort of like" the GD but changes all sorts of stuff around, go ahead. Lots of people do that. The only thing I'm suggesting is that if you want to do the GD work, do that. If you want to do the OTO work, or the AA work, or the AS work, or the work of any order, go ahead and do that. But understand that there is a reason those groups operate as they do, part of which is that it has worked for member for many years. If you want to change it then you are no longer doing that work, and claiming you are is something of a misrepresentation, don't you think?

I mean, if you said you were a Jungian therapist but threw out Jung's ideas to replace them with your own, would it be ethical to call what you're doing Jungian therapy?

My turn:

Hello Don,

Okay, what is hypnotism? It is a technique emplying the spoken voice to consciously bring about a specific altered state in which the conscious mind relaxes enough to allow the subconscious to surface. Really, that is it. Whatever happens after that depends on one’s intention.

Magick is the deployment of the conscious mind to consciously access and wield the forces of the subconscious, collective unconscious, and “superconsciousness” in order to effect the microcosm and macrocosm, utilizing a plethora of techniques aimed at generating an altered state of mind. These states are quite varied, including the state wherein the intrusion of the conscious mind is forced to become passive enough to allow access to the subconscious.

So, honestly, I do not understand why you think I am changing anything around. You make it sound like I’m taking the GD system and interpreting it in my own way, replacing things with my own ideas. Nothing at all is being changed or altered here in any way.

You also make it sound as if hypnosis is some whole other system. It is not. It is a technique. Hypnotherapy is a system. Hypnosis is a technique, and there are forms of self-hypnosis used by the GD, employing symbolism instead of words. Really, the difference in hypnosis and magick is extremely subtle.

From another practitioner, “In short, the work of the magician is to do whatever is necessary to create an altered state that results in change and a desired outcome. Sound familiar? From this point of view, the boundary between hypnosis as we know it and magick as we might learn to accept it is somewhat vague. The essential difference that I'll offer here is the concept of a "ritual frame."…. “Just as the Ericksonian definition of hypnosis suggests that "Trance permits the operator to evoke in a controlled manner the same mental mechanisms that are operative spontaneously in everyday life," we may find that magick is subject to a very similar definition.”

It seems to me that you are seperating and removing from eachother’s contact two things which are not really that seperate. If I have a problem in doing the complex visualization employed in the LBRP, what exactly am I changing by writing a script of the relaxation process and the visualizations themselves? What is being altered by merely writing down and speaking something which I would be doing mentally anyway? The inductions I will be using are much more intensive than an average relaxation technique, but that is because I want to deepen the altered state prior to the performance of the ritual

It is encouraged by some to practice the LBRP while in bed before sleeping, in order to strengthen the sense of one’s “body of light.”. That is all I am doing really, except the process will be guided by voice. Sort of like having training wheels on a bike. I really do have a lot of difficulty in focusing on the visualizations, channeling the energy for the creation of the pentagrams, and the vibrating of the divine names. There are hypnosis scripts meant for strengthening one’s faculty of visualization, in which one creates a visual scene and performs certain actions. In advanced scrying, employing the “body of light”, one does these same things. By performing the ritual this way, merely with the guidance of the voice, I am doing nothing at all different from the methods of the order. It is just to facilitate my own learning process. The only thing I am doing different is in using the voice to guide myself along.

I understand that you probably know more about the GD tradition than I do, and I respect that. However, if it the book indicates that I am supposed to not practice the LBRP before having taken the Neophyte Initiation, I am afraid that I will not stop my practice just because someone else said so. I think one has to understand that when the book was written, most probably the only way of having access to the information was to join the order. Things have changed. And not everyone, including myself, has the means to join an order (being in a rather secluded area, and far from any temple). I do agree that intitation is a “shock to the system”, and I do look forward to that. In the meantime, I will continue with my own work.

Also, the GD and OTO have an unbelievable amount in common, and are very related, seeing as that the Thelemic system is an interpretation of the GD, with Crowley’s own personal revelations. Anyway, I mentioned it because that same oath exists in the OTO.

That's all for now. Just posted that last one, so I'll be back with more when there is more.

Just a note but the initiations of the OTO and GD both contain oaths but they are not the same oaths. This is why that point of your argument is useless.

While the OTO may be considered in some ways to be Crowley's interpretation of the GD, all of those interpretations have no value to those in the Golden Dawn tradition. The GD neophyte oath contains specific references to non-involvement with hypnotism and mesmerism, although later modified to states of passivity which resemble the modern OTO oaths as far as I know.

You'll find that many Golden Dawn forums are interested in only discussing Golden Dawn related material. Reinterpretation (as in your use of hypnosis) or other reappropriations of materials do not go over well.

One problem is you are calling yourself a beginner in the practice of Golden Dawn magic while not actually practicing Golden Dawn magic within it's dogma. While it may be Golden Dawn influenced that is all it is.

I know this is a matter of splitting the semantic hairs but this is why I never attempt to label what I do. I won't even call myself a chaos magician, even that creates a pigeon-hole definition.

One final note, you will find that the worst thing you can do to attempt to make a point with a hard-core GD'er is to cite Crowley or the OTO. You might as well argue theology with a Catholic Priest by citing Nietzche.

It just isn't going to fly.

This isn't to decry the modern GD, OTO, or anyone else. These groups have found a system that works for them, if you want to step out of that system you will have to look elsewhere. Your argument with the Moderator is a waste of time.


I will quote the Moderator because I completely agree with the point he is making.



You're absolutely correct. You're free to do whatever you wish. Nobody is forbidding you from doing anything. If you want to do something that is "sort of like" the GD but changes all sorts of stuff around, go ahead. Lots of people do that. The only thing I'm suggesting is that if you want to do the GD work, do that. If you want to do the OTO work, or the AA work, or the AS work, or the work of any order, go ahead and do that. But understand that there is a reason those groups operate as they do, part of which is that it has worked for member for many years. If you want to change it then you are no longer doing that work, and claiming you are is something of a misrepresentation, don't you think?

I mean, if you said you were a Jungian therapist but threw out Jung's ideas to replace them with your own, would it be ethical to call what you're doing Jungian therapy?


Everything he says here I agree with. Whatever you decide to do it is not Golden Dawn work unless it fits the criteria laid out in the Golden Dawn materials. Hypnotism, does not.

This post has been edited by chaoscrowley37: Dec 9 2005, 12:33 AM

Thanx Chascrowley,

Your input helped me get the perspective I was needing, and that I wasn't getting in the argument.

I won't quote anymore from the other post, as it got a bit nasty before it smoothed out. I apologized for my rudeness to him, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush2.gif) and agreed that I wasn't doing GD at all, but borrowing from it and going my own way.

Anyway, the forum there is filled with experienced and professional hypnotists, which is why I posted the topic there. And as luck would have it, the guy I apologized to, Don, has been teaching the LBRP for over twenty years !! (found that out after I apologized)

But if anyone at all is interested, I will post the script when it is done, so it can be useful for those who wish to use it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/egypt1.gif)