Angels, Do they really protect? Options

Hi all... I did not know on which forum to post this topic and i hope its not a problem putting it here...
Well I've read that everyone has 2 angels with him/her... One the guardian angel who accompanies us in all incarnations etc.. and the normal angel who is with us for this particular incarnation...
Then if any person has 2 angels with him/her and above that there are archangels/Principalities/Virtues/Powers/Dominions/Thrones/Cherubim/Seraphim who are here to protect humanity, then how come sometimes there are extreme crimes being committed to innocent people... the crime i hate most is rape... Could someone elaborate on when are the angels supposed to interfere... Rape is a case where i think even satan could come to the rescue if called upon...This statement is to show how much i condemn such a crime....
Any body can enlighten me on why such crimes get committed without the interference of those who have to protect us?

Well this question may seem silly,but i need to lean a lots on the functioning of this world...

I've yet to come across much in the way of angels interfering, and I've heard a bit about "guardian angels", but it mostly seems to be from non-literary sources.

From a purely Christian point of view, a human's ability to choose right from wrong has to be sustained - with all the consequences attached - or the entire point of our existance ceases to be.

If an angel interfered, how could we truly take responsibility for our own actions?

My girlfriend has been raped several times, so I can understand why you find it abhorrent, but you also have to realise that any individual who commits that act is also slowly isolating themselves from everyone else, and thereby doing themselves just as much harm as they do others (even if they don't realise).

And you also have to keep in mind that it is our struggles that define us as individuals. To truly become the beings we should be, it's essential that we can be able to come to grips, not only with our own actions and their consequences, but the consequences of other people's actions.

To put it simply: Learning is not an easy process.

I'll take from my own personal philosophy now to explain what I mean in more complex terms. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
If an individual doesn't like me or takes an action against me, what can I truly do about it? Yes, I deal with the consequences, but the true problem either highlights my own deficiencies, or a problem inherent in that person's existance. So I'm faced with two possibilities - either a possibility for self-improvement, or something that is mostly out of my hands.
I say mostly, because one is able to highlight a deficiency in others simply by outshining the darkness they spread. If someone intentionally does you harm, and then you do them a nice thing in return, how will that make them feel? Generally, small, confused, surprised, undeserving.

So as I said - hardship is an opening that allows us to move forward.

Let me try my brain on this one.

What mystick is asking here is of course the eternal question of why we suffer. The question becomes pretty bad when one comes from the belief that there is an almighty and loving God watching us all. I like better to believe that if there is a higher Creator behind this all, it is not a benevolent one. But still the angels can come from benevolent gods. Other gods that oppose and rebel against the All, and see potential in men and thus work for their well-being. Here things are getting easier to cope with, since these angels will in this way have less power than the angels from the Creator.

God is a Demon.


-thief

you make me remind of a book, where a monk gets abducted by aliens and the latter tell him the "truth" about them.... The aliens sa that they are gardening us humans .... They are very advanced and know techniques of time travel, out of body/astra travel etc.... These aliens have been on earth since long and normally their hide point is inside some crater thing.... they have deposited humans and we are part of some experiments etc... According to them we are failures and we will destroy ourselves soon... Its is in fact these aliens that we considered as god in previous civilisations... thats why in hindu myths, we hear of flying chariots(ufo)/ gods residing in mountains(places where aliens could set up easily a control site) etc.

I am so confused man.. ehat to believe and what not to believe....

we sometimes say that all that we do or endure is to have the karma experience these things in various incarnations so that eventually one gets to become all knowing and merges with god himself... but is that all the purpose of it???? you get merged, but then what happend to your soul itself???.... ???
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

and if one gets what he deserved in previous lives... e.g a punishment for e.g being born blind, then the peson should be made aware of the fact why he is punished.. i dont understand where fairness is present here>...

enlighten me someone...
the more i try to understand of life the more confused i become

If you are confused with life, consider these:

1. First purpose is to experience life itself.
2. Second purpose is to be active and affect this world around you.
3. You are born with a plan, but to remember it you have to create it all over again.
4. Think about who you are and where you have been heading in the past.

You might find that there are several things about you that makes you different from others. These same things might give you an idea of what you are doing here.

A soul can choose to become blind. A soul can choose to be raped. You'd be amazed by the weird "mechanics" behind this. We simply shape ourselves and steer into our purpose this way.

Keep those questions coming, they are quite interesting, not to say fundamental.

Sorry Thief, but I gotta disagree with you on a point.

An omnibenevolent deity does not necessarily have to intervene wherever there is suffering. Onibenevolence doesn't mean that it can't stomach pain, if it is necessarily in a longer-term form of benevolence.

Hello Zahaqiel and thief,
Well i got gr8 repleid from you.. thnks...

well Zahaqiel, i did not understand this phrase "Onibenevolence doesn't mean that it can't stomach pain, if it is necessarily in a longer-term form of benevolence."

could you elaborate on this a bit plz

This is an interesting thread on which I'd like to shed some light, ergo share my opinion. I've been contemplating about very similar questions such as: why would God create suffering if he can create solutions for all problems? After many complex thoughts I found the answer to be so simple, so obvious. Shortly after the book "An Unusual Conversation with God" by Neal Walsch or so was brought to my attention. This book was nothing more then a comfirmation of the answers I had found prior, but he explained it more indepth and much clearer then I can.

First you have to drop al misconceptions that religions have about their God. Why create a God that is unconditional Love and gave everyone free will yet he lets you be born in sin and wants you to do certain things in order to redeem yourself so you won't go pay a visit to satan. This makes no sense at all, does it? Why would something that is ALL need a counterpart as well? God is in the Absolute where things just are, he isn't the relitave reality where we have the Alpha and Omega and other dualities.

The ALL was concious of itself and knew/knows everything, but it was not wise only knowledgable. It wanted to experience itself and split itself up and thus our reality was born and everything within. We're made in God's image, not in the physical sense but the energetical sense. We are God and we are creators as well and are responsible ourselves for that which occurs in our lives. Are we concious of all that we create? No, because our soul is the one who wants to experience. Life's purpose is to experience all there is to experience. This includes the aspects which we enjoy as well as the hardships. Simply put, you don't know what darkness is by simply having the knowledge...you need to experience it in order to understand what it is.

Like the angel that was happy and was always in the light, the centre of the sun. God talked about the darkness, but the angel didn't know what it was. So God told the angel where to go. Once surrounded by complete darkness the angel was scared and felt abondend by it's father. But God said not to worry, because he's there even in darkness and that he is all and you should not fear darkness but embrace it because it is a part of you as well. Embrace it and not be overwhelmed because you can return to whereever you want to be in the blink of an eye.

Anyways the controversial book by neal Walsch is better at explaining the many aspects which are a part of this. It means reviewing many aspects of life and religion and do it "properly" this time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif)

Sorry Thief, but I gotta disagree with you on a point.

An omnibenevolent deity does not necessarily have to intervene wherever there is suffering. Onibenevolence doesn't mean that it can't stomach pain, if it is necessarily in a longer-term form of benevolence.

The more pain we can handle, the more pain we will get. There is no end to suffering, and shouldn't be either. Without pain and fear what would become of us? Not sure if we could even take care of ourselves. We'd be like a mushroom for others to pick and eat.
We get stronger, we get better, but in the end we only get used.

I often use the perspective of life's evolution on earth. It is headed somewhere. And I am sure not the one running it.

I don't believe in a God that sits and do nothing. I think all is controlled, by every breath you take.


Sabazel:
What you say is actually implied in what I myself have said. It's a common thread of thought adopted by many. But it doesn't really explain much of itself. Like, where does the initiative for experience come from, and why? Still it makes a focus on this initiative, which indeed exist.


-thief

The more pain we can handle, the more pain we will get. There is no end to suffering, and shouldn't be either. Without pain and fear what would become of us? Not sure if we could even take care of ourselves. We'd be like a mushroom for others to pick and eat.
We get stronger, we get better, but in the end we only get used.

I often use the perspective of life's evolution on earth. It is headed somewhere. And I am sure not the one running it.

I don't believe in a God that sits and do nothing. I think all is controlled, by every breath you take.

I don't think it's all controlled - what would be the point? The closest comparable situation I could use as an example would not be a liked one - imagine that you're running a roleplaying game, and you make two of the non-player characters, that you've put a ton of detail into, fall in love. The whole thing seems utterly pointless.
I'd agree that God is in everything, but I wouldn't say that it controls everything.

After many complex thoughts I found the answer to be so simple, so obvious. Shortly after the book "An Unusual Conversation with God" by Neal Walsch or so was brought to my attention.

"Conversations with God: An Uncommon Dialogue". I very nearly mentioned it in my post at the top.

First you have to drop al misconceptions that religions have about their God. Why create a God that is unconditional Love and gave everyone free will yet he lets you be born in sin and wants you to do certain things in order to redeem yourself so you won't go pay a visit to satan.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol_2.gif) Too common a misconception about Christianity. I invite you to find a single place in the bible where it says that Satan rules hell. In fact, if you read it in the original Hebrew/Greek, you find out that there are four different afterlives (Heaven, Sheol (the grave, which is where all souls go to at first), Hell (a place without God) and Tartarus (slaughtering place of angels)).
And taken in that light, it makes a ton of sense - people go exactly where they want to be, either with God, or without.

Like the angel that was happy and was always in the light, the centre of the sun. God talked about the darkness, but the angel didn't know what it was. So God told the angel where to go. Once surrounded by complete darkness the angel was scared and felt abondend by it's father. But God said not to worry, because he's there even in darkness and that he is all and you should not fear darkness but embrace it because it is a part of you as well. Embrace it and not be overwhelmed because you can return to whereever you want to be in the blink of an eye.

Not quite what it says, but then again, the book disproves its own deity in some places, if you look really carefully.
I don't dispute the author's methods, but I do have suspicions about his spiritual enlightener.

I don't think it's all controlled - what would be the point? The closest comparable situation I could use as an example would not be a liked one - imagine that you're running a roleplaying game, and you make two of the non-player characters, that you've put a ton of detail into, fall in love. The whole thing seems utterly pointless.

this part i agree too in respect to what i have come to learn... I think that Humans are the creature God really likes and made resembling himself... I also have come to realise that God also has given us a mind and sub concious that can be used independent of him.. i.e we are free to choose and path we want. we are free to do bad but for every bad wee do, there will be a consequence to that... well till now its what i have been able to grasp..
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the concept of incarnations etc is somehow a bit complicated to me... The soul has been created by god and has to go through several incarnations to acquire knowledge and to finally become knowing of everthing and even being able to acquiring all that one may wish to such a point that the soul no longer need to re-incarnate.... then the soul will merge with the supreme being...I dont know what happens next but from a book, i ve read that the merging is done to serve humanity and the world better in a "multithreaded" way... But serving humanity would be like to aid the process of soul incarnation and reincarnation etc.. it will be like someone going round a tree and when he has made a lot if turns, he helps another person to make the rounds.... I dont find a real aim at this.. IS this concept right??? I dont think so ...
If it is right the this concept serves as a backbone for humans to take birth and experience life.... it also serves to build people different from each other so that we dont ressemble robots made in in assembly...

However Theres something else, If Humans are made of The supreme's being appearance and powers etc, then is it humans who are the most powerful creatures of the universe, is that right? even if we are not really aware of all powers we can have... But this can also be the case that Creatures from other planets can be in the form of God, that is resembling us to a great extent of what we will look like thousands of years later.. I read from a book that one person was made to do astral travel through the universe by super advanced creatures but finally what the person found that in other planets, there were some creatures resembling us to a great extent.

Any opinions on this matter that i have tried to derive from what i am learning...

I dont know what happens next but from a book, i ve read that the merging is done to serve humanity and the world better in a "multithreaded" way... But serving humanity would be like to aid the process of soul incarnation and reincarnation etc.. it will be like someone going round a tree and when he has made a lot if turns, he helps another person to make the rounds.... I dont find a real aim at this.. IS this concept right??? I dont think so ...

Sort of. This is the view of reincarnation if you include the boddhisatvas.

However Theres something else, If Humans are made of The supreme's being appearance and powers etc, then is it humans who are the most powerful creatures of the universe, is that right?

In a way yes. If you include the idea that God is a separate entity to each individual while still being a part of them, then no - God itself is the greatest creator - but for all intents and purposes we are the epitome of creators. I'd suggest that this is why biblically we are given the right to rule over the earth and all creatures in it.

I don't know anything about other worlds, but I see no reason as to why anyone else in our position might be more or less advanced than we are.

there also a point that my mind brought out following the post of thief.

Well according to the belief of birth and rebirth and incarnation, when someone dies, he takes birth again... well this itself shows that the journey of the souls is already programmed!!! dont you think so... coz there needs to be a great deal of synchronisation for the death and birth to take place in their corect timing.. suppose for someone to be born, there need several things that need to occur e.g sex following fertilization etc etc .. well these things should have been synchronised with the death of the person in previous birth according
to logic....

But this fact about incarnation itself seems a bit confusing in the sense that world's population grew from hundreds to billions.. so is God continuously creating souls??? this should be the case because if God is expanding the universe, so should be its inhabitants...
From the above statements, i can come to the conclusion that not every birth is a consequence of a death but creation is still going on and as nothing comes from nowhere, its that we are all part of the supreme being..

however according to what i have been able to gather, all this process seems to have already been planned.... Its not that i have just watched Matrix, but its what i come to derive of our existence... one e.g of this statement can be that you might sometimes be faced to certain circumstances that you believe that the choice you made before had to be made for you to acheive things that earlier you wanted to achieve; in short sometimes events occurs in such an organised way that you might think that you life has already been written...isnt it?..

there's even an author of a clairvoyance teaching who said something like: the tenses in life is like the projection of a movie.. all is already in the reels.. the present is what is being projected.. the future is already in the reels but will be projected minutes after etc etc.. again this lead to another question... whats the purpose of making life when all is already programmed? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) are we like computer games? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/insane.gif) war craft etc?

I find it interesting to discuss all these things that are exploding out of my mind and getting the point of view from you WISE people .... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

This post has been edited by mystick: Jan 19 2006, 11:07 AM

Well according to the belief of birth and rebirth and incarnation, when someone dies, he takes birth again... well this itself shows that the journey of the souls is already programmed!!! dont you think so... coz there needs to be a great deal of synchronisation for the death and birth to take place in their corect timing.. suppose for someone to be born, there need several things that need to occur e.g sex following fertilization etc etc .. well these things should have been synchronised with the death of the person in previous birth according
to logic....

Not necessarily. There are plenty of logical explanations outside pre-programmed routes. A soul may just go to the first available body. Or alternatively, a soul may choose where it goes next (as is suggested by "Conversations with God: An Uncommon Dialogue"). Both are rational explanations within the confines of reincarnation.

But this fact about incarnation itself seems a bit confusing in the sense that world's population grew from hundreds to billions.. so is God continuously creating souls???

Animals. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif)

Theres something more i would like to append to this thread. its from Yoga, Meditation and Japa Sadhana by Swami Krishnananda, The Divine Life Society.

People ask, "Does God exist?" This is a meaningless question. If the world exists, God must exist; because God is only a name that you give to the Consciousness that indwells the whole universe, just as consciousness indwells your own individual personality.
You may ask, "How do you know there is Consciousness everywhere?" I ask you, "How do you know your friend has consciousness?" You know you have consciousness, but you cannot see consciousness in your friend. But you infer from his intelligent activity that he has consciousness. Likewise, from the activity of the cosmos, we can infer the presence of a Cosmic Intelligence.
Now, this Cosmic Intelligence, immanent in all objects, is what is called God, the Supreme Being. You call it the Absolute, because it is Complete Consciousness, and there is nothing outside it. When there is something outside it, you call it relative consciousness. When there is nothing outside it, and it is All-in-All, all-pervading, you call it Absolute-Consciousness.
Now, you are a part of the Absolute-Consciousness, because you are a part of the universe. You are an organic part of the universe, not a mechanical part (like a stone in a heap). You are vitally related to the whole cosmos, so that you are an essential part of the cosmos.
From this analysis we come to the astounding conclusion that the whole universe may be compared to a vast individuality. This is what the Vedas call the Parama-Purusha or the Supreme Being. When they use such terms in the texts, what they mean is that our salvation lies in being friendly with the universe as a whole.
The health of a finger of your body depends upon the health of the whole body. Suppose the whole body is suffering from typhoid fever, can a finger be healthy? No, the finger also will be affected by the same illness,because it is vitally related to the whole body. Likewise, whatever the universe is, that you also are. The universe is a perfect balance of forces; and so, inasmuch as you are an integral part of this perfect balance of forces, which is the universe, you know how you have to conduct yourself in life. You cannot afford at any time in your life to violate the law of the universe.

Found this paragraph quite interesting to put it here...

I've yet to come across much in the way of angels interfering, and I've heard a bit about "guardian angels", but it mostly seems to be from non-literary sources.

From a purely Christian point of view, a human's ability to choose right from wrong has to be sustained - with all the consequences attached - or the entire point of our existance ceases to be.

If an angel interfered, how could we truly take responsibility for our own actions?

My girlfriend has been raped several times, so I can understand why you find it abhorrent, but you also have to realise that any individual who commits that act is also slowly isolating themselves from everyone else, and thereby doing themselves just as much harm as they do others (even if they don't realise).

And you also have to keep in mind that it is our struggles that define us as individuals. To truly become the beings we should be, it's essential that we can be able to come to grips, not only with our own actions and their consequences, but the consequences of other people's actions.

To put it simply: Learning is not an easy process.

I'll take from my own personal philosophy now to explain what I mean in more complex terms. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
If an individual doesn't like me or takes an action against me, what can I truly do about it? Yes, I deal with the consequences, but the true problem either highlights my own deficiencies, or a problem inherent in that person's existance. So I'm faced with two possibilities - either a possibility for self-improvement, or something that is mostly out of my hands.
I say mostly, because one is able to highlight a deficiency in others simply by outshining the darkness they spread. If someone intentionally does you harm, and then you do them a nice thing in return, how will that make them feel? Generally, small, confused, surprised, undeserving.

So as I said - hardship is an opening that allows us to move forward.

ANGELS ARE the reason people suffer they are evil satan created us and he isnt evil but angels want u too think that and there is no "god" there is satan and all the demons they are alll gods go too www.joyofsatan.com

Well according to the belief of birth and rebirth and incarnation, when someone dies, he takes birth again... well this itself shows that the journey of the souls is already programmed!!! dont you think so... coz there needs to be a great deal of synchronisation for the death and birth to take place in their corect timing.. suppose for someone to be born, there need several things that need to occur e.g sex following fertilization etc etc .. well these things should have been synchronised with the death of the person in previous birth according
to logic....

Not necessarily. There are plenty of logical explanations outside pre-programmed routes. A soul may just go to the first available body. Or alternatively, a soul may choose where it goes next (as is suggested by "Conversations with God: An Uncommon Dialogue"). Both are rational explanations within the confines of reincarnation.

But this fact about incarnation itself seems a bit confusing in the sense that world's population grew from hundreds to billions.. so is God continuously creating souls???

Animals. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif)

there is no 1 allmighty god there are 100ds of demons that are gods that created the earth and the most powerful one is satan and angels are against demons and satan u cant be with the 72 goetics and angels angels are evil

Hi bloodwolf666,
Well I won’t be biased by any thought that has been inculcated since childhood etc and I welcome beliefs like yours.
However this is said from a Christian point of view, but when you see it from other religion point of view, it’s not Satan as such who the sole God is. I think that Gods and Demons have an important role to play altogether... That’s what gives rise to FREE WILL that has been blessed upon mankind by the source of all... By source, I mean the one who created the Gods and Demons… the only Father/Shiva/Allah…. And the many names that we use to call him.
Well do please add more on this topic so that I may learn more on your views.

So you're asking why if there are such benevolant creatures guarding us why would such terrible things happen? Actually this is a relatively common question. Usually accompanied with, 'if God is so loving WHY would he allow this (enter terrible tragedy here) to happen??". Well, in a way everything has it's place (as sad as that is to say). It's called balance. Chaos and Order, up and down, fast and slow. All are extreme opposite of each other, but there needs to be a set of polarities in order for a balance to be made. A happy medium. I don't know of any religion that has only one extreme. Even buddhism has demons. If there is only one side there would be...well...complete chaos.

Besides, people have to learn to grow. That's the point of living. As terrible as some of those lives may be, it's a 'choice'. People can either learn from these things and evolve and help other people or they can go down a road that leads us into a further descending spiral.
Imagine everytime you got hurt when you were a kid, if mommy was there to chase off the bullies or solve your problems for you, you'd turn into a social retard without the ability to think for yourself. It's the same way with humanity and god. Truth is, I wish my mother was there for me sometimes when I was a kid, but instead of constantly being angry at her, I learned from the situation. It made me stronger. I was able to make choices, think on my feet, and evolve.

The only answers I can give you is that ...

People have free will and spiritual beings cannot interject and take that away from us.

The actions are result of people.

And..What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

Yes there are Angels and they do protect.

Bad s@#t happens because the forces of evil are comparable in strength to the forces of good. Karma can also at time really suck.

However this does not mean that there are not forces trying to help and protect us.