Elemental Interconnections Options

An aspect of the Enochian paradigm that I appreciate is how the elements are interconnected with each other. For example: water of earth; air of fire; earth of air; etc... To me, such interconnection enriches Enochian's elemental model.

However, I'm not clear about why a kind of elemental interconnection is included. Specifically - interconnections of the variety: earth of earth; water of water; air of air; etc...

I ask because while I comprehend that the interconnections for each element provide further insight regarding each element - yet, at this point, I don't comprehend how earth of earth is not simply earth, how water of water is not simply water, how air of air is not simply air, etc...

Explanations for why interconnections of that variety are included would be welcome.

While I am not an enochian practitioner per-se, I think I might be able to help shed some light on this issue for you...

The sub-elements aren't illustrating inter-connections... they are illustrating different qualities of the parent element. Each element as we experience them is actually a composite of its sub-elements... LOL this is harder to explain than I thought... Let me try to use an example...

There is a big difference between Fire of Earth and Earth of Fire. They deal with two entirely different elements (Earth and Fire respectively). The parent element (listed second) is the element you are working with, while the Sub-Element (listed first) is the particular aspect of the parent that you are focusing on.
Fire of Earth is dealing with the passionate, directive, powerful energies present in the element Earth.
Earth of Fire is dealing with the solid, steady, material, foundational energies present in the element of Fire.

Therefore when you are working with Fire of Fire for example... you are working with the most willful, passionate, direct, parts of the element of Fire... not necessarily just plain old Fire.

Hope this helped...

LVX
AVP

Something seems semantically squirrelly to me about considering the elements as aspects (qualities) of each other. I will write about this using variables, so that the value associations involving the elements does not obscure the squirrelly part.

Five variables: A, B, C, D, and E

Where:

A has aspects B, C, D, and E
B has aspects A, C, D, and E
C has aspects A, B, D, and E
D has aspects A, B, C, and E
E has aspects A, B, C, and D

Now - just to use the first variable A as an example:

If B, C, D, and E are aspects of A -

Then how can B, C, D, and E themselves have A as an aspect of that which they are?

How can there be:

B of A,
C of A,
D of A, and
E of A

But then there be:

A of B,
A of C,
A of D, and
A of E

Given that B, C, D, and E are aspects of A?

Before I start, please forgive me if I miss the point...
First off There are 5 Constants(...no variable yet). A, B, C, D and E.
E represents an underlying element, prevading all other elements. It is, in effect, the 'glue' that holds everything together. Depending upon the system you use, this glue will mirror the subelement it is attached to...for reference purposes.
The four elements are broken down further into four sub elements...these four subelement having four sub/sub elrements. Each element has thity six 'glue' elements. Each of the four sub elements have ten sub 'glue' elements.
A good example of all of this is shown in Regardies Golden Dawn or in Denning/Philips Mysteria Magicka.
The progression goes like this: 4(constant elements) each divided into 4 sub (variable elements), each of these divided again into 4 sub/sub (variable elements). E, or spirit prevades all.

It should be noted that a number of interesting things were happening in the world of Dr. Dee and the infamous Kelley. Dee worked hard for the government with secret codes and messages as well as his magic and that 'magic squares' were highly prevalent at the time.

My own work with this system has yielded some rather interesting resulys through some scrying Angelology and the Triangle of Manifestation. All in all, a fun puzzle and a potent system! Since there are those here that will be teaching Enochian I will now shut up and leave them to it! Good luck!

You are forgiven, bym - because you did kind of miss my point.

The point that I was attempting to make was in the latter part of my last post, with regard to considering them as aspects (or qualities) of each other, using A as an example.

If B, C, D, and E are aspects of A - then how can B, C, D, and E themselves have A as an aspect of that which they are?

Can you see what I mean by the squirrelly situation I referenced there?

Suh-Wing Batta, batta, batta! LOL! I frequently miss the point...but that's half the fun!
The elements make up everything but not in their pure form. As we ascend the spiritual ladder we come closer to experiencing the elements in their pure form. They are, in this form, a constant, an archetype. As we descend the ladder the interaction between the elements gets more and more mixed or variable. Quixotic isn't it? A spiritual conundrum (that's short for 'I don't know why...') The addition of the 5th element remains all pervasive and is denoted within the Enochian system as having elemental variables to link this element to the others. Some find it more of a convenience...depending on your point of view!

I ask because while I comprehend that the interconnections for each element provide further insight regarding each element - yet, at this point, I don't comprehend how earth of earth is not simply earth, how water of water is not simply water, how air of air is not simply air, etc...

Explanations for why interconnections of that variety are included would be welcome.
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Strangely enough I am not so sure that the tablets from Liber Legoeth are elemental based. I know the Golden dawn made extensive use of the elemental corresponces with the enochian system, but then again their enochian system is not the same system Dee and Kelly were using. And the Golden Dawn was trying to MAKE the enochian system fit into their elemental based hermeticism.

It seems to me the Enochian beings cared more about the placing of the tablets and their directional correspondences, but this is my opinion. So when I work with the tablets I always state for example "I call to thee, Aboza supreme Dispositor upon the Eastern Subquarter of the such and such tablet." Rather than This:" I call to thee, Aboza the supreme Dispositor Angel of the Air subquarter of the such and such element teblet."

This post has been edited by Enigmius: Apr 7 2006, 12:39 PM

Okay - just to check here to be sure I comprehend what you mean here, Equiminius - taking the tablet of Air as an example:

The Tablet of Air is in the East.
The Tablet of Air is then subdivided into four quadrants.

Those four quadrants of the Tablet of Air are then further associated with the cardinal directions.

i.e.

The upper left quadrant of AIr is East (instead of being Air of Air);
The upper right quadrant of Air is West (instead of being Water of Air);
The lower left quadrant of Air is North (instead of being Earth of Air); and,
The lower right quadrant of Air is South (instead of being Fire of Air)?

Is that what you mean?

If not, could you reiterate your explanation for me here?

If not, could you reiterate your explanation for me here?

Well if you look at the great tablet with all four elemental tables on it it Goes like this

upper left tablet=air upper right tablet=Water

lower left tablet=Earth lower right tablet=Fire

You may notice that the directions and the elements are not in the same arrangement as most things are when it comes to ritual magick, but this is the way the angels delivered the information.

Now, each one of these tablets are further divided by four: These smaller sections are called subquadrants. The subquadrants are organised the same as the larger tablets for instance:

The sub quadrant of air if in the upperleft, the subquadrant of water is in the upper right, subquandrant of earth is lower left and the subquandrant of fire is the lower right.

But when calling the angels and giving their titles I leave out the words elements and what not all together and just use the directions.
UL= east
UR=south
Lr=west
LL=north

The reason I leave out the elements is because if you read all the books from dee and Kelly Journals there are some conflicting data on what element corresponds to which tablet, IN fact they have two different arangements of which element corresponds to each pole however none of the elemental arangements they give us are the same as the elemental arangements we are used to in ceremonial magick today.(e=air,s=fire,w=water,n=earth)..So if you must use the elemental correspondences I would stick to the list I gave you above as it is one way the angels give it to us.

This post has been edited by Enigmius: Apr 9 2006, 08:51 AM