Punishment Options

I have a theoretical question about punishing a disobediant spirit. Now in the goetia it has formula about punishing a being that does not appear, but what about punishing a being that doesn't do what you comand it to repeatidly? Would one need to do this ritual by poutting on its sigil and singing its sigl over flames? Etc? What would you do?

I have a theoretical question about punishing a disobediant spirit. Now in the goetia it has formula about punishing a being that does not appear, but what about punishing a being that doesn't do what you comand it to repeatidly? Would one need to do this ritual by poutting on its sigil and singing its sigl over flames? Etc? What would you do?

An evocation I was involved with several years ago involved a Goetic spirit. It was troublesome from the start as the operator had to repeatedly place the spirits seal in a metal vessel and set it on hot coals. A sigil inscribed stone served as a "lid" to the vessel. The operation was a success as the operator realized what he asked for a few weeks later.

I have a theoretical question about punishing a disobediant spirit. Now in the goetia it has formula about punishing a being that does not appear, but what about punishing a being that doesn't do what you comand it to repeatidly? Would one need to do this ritual by poutting on its sigil and singing its sigl over flames? Etc? What would you do?

The conjurations are fairly clear about the responsibilities of the spirit. You command it to "appear here... make rational answers... manifesting what I desire" etc.. The spirit is bound to each command and must fulfill it according to the oration, otherwise it is in jeopardy of punishment.

This is one of the reasons I stress using the correct form of ceremony and equipment: if you omit something, the spirit can ignore you outright or answer in a way more pleasing to it than to you. If you don't have the fire, the chain, the sulphur, the box etc... you can expect the spirit will not take your threats seriously since you could not possibly fulfill them within the context of the ceremony.

The spirits are bound to answer clearly and work in a way that suits your intentions. You need to describe what you want, but you don't need to give GPS coordinates. Also take some time, if appropriate, to engage the spirit in conversation when it comes to new or difficult subjects, instead of simply demanding answers then sending it away.

If you do not use the original form of the ceremony, having devised some means of securing the service of the spirit on your own, it would be wise to make certain that the spirit is bound by all the terms, not just the command to appear. All the Goetia spirits are answerable to the cardinal wardens, and you might begin there when looking for ways to arrange your own punitive contract.

For me, I also make it clear that if they don't do as I ask, they don't get what they want. Usually it's a sigil scrawled somewhere, or special incense or something next time they appear. I make it clear that their payment is a reward for a job well done, nothing more and nothing less. NO results = NO goodies.

Remember, you're the boss, and these are high-powered employees. Keyword employees. It's your responsibility to be honest with them and treat them well, but it's their responsibility to fulfill the tasks set before them as well, so long as said tasks fall within their domains.

This post has been edited by Darkmage: Dec 25 2006, 05:17 PM

For me, I also make it clear that if they don't do as I ask, they don't get what they want. Usually it's a sigil scrawled somewhere, or special incense or something next time they appear. I make it clear that their payment is a reward for a job well done, nothing more and nothing less. NO results = NO goodies.

In traditional Goetia, the spirit is not rewarded for its work. Giving offering to spirits in exchange for service is the hallmark of demonolatry, but in Goetia you are subjugating them: receiving service against their will. There are some restrictions allowed them, for example the #1 spirit ("Bael") was invoked for a huge variety of reasons in the ancient world, but in Goetia you can force it only to do one thing. It is said plainly of some spirits that they will deceive you if you make them an offering - how then would you contact this spirit?

With spirit #9, an offering is required out of deference to the others who come along with it, and there are other exceptions as well but in all such cases the spirit is not the one receiving the gift. The sacrifice required for the sealing of the vessel is similarly not received by the spirit. Even in the later grimoirs, the offering of the goat is made for the sake of "Adonay" and it is only made for the sake of producing the parchment required.

Where have you obtained this idea of giving the spirits sacrifices and services, and why does it seem preferable to you instead of the standard bindings?