Lbrp / Calyx Question Options

In the Kabbalistic Cross and LBRP (from the Golden Dawn rite), the words are:

Thou art the power and the kingdom and the glory forever.

In the Calyx (from the Aurum Solis rite), the words are:

Thou art the power and the kingdom and the majesty forever.

alt translation: Thou art the power and the kingdom and the glory forever unto the ages.



Okay:

In both cases: what/who exactly is being addressed?

i.e. What/who is the thou?

YOU are Thou! IMHO,...of course!

Well, when I say it, I direct it towards God (Christian God), but it can be directed to a loaf of bread if you want it to.

I have found this to be a changing of definitions of thou depending upon whose sandbox I am playing in when I begin building this castle of Self:

1.) JudeoChristian types lean to "God the Father"/JHVH possibly even Andonai Elohim for a little more soft and cuddly version of Daddy (sorry for offending Qabbalists for my user paraphrasing, but come on...you know I'm right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/harp.gif))

2.) Thelemic and Chaotic folks lean toward your thou as self. Being the Higher Self, Personal God Head, the starting point of your stardust initiated from the initial starting Big Bang.

3.) Alchemical, Qabalistic, may be some rogue Old type Masons, and independent magical folks use the thou of primordial materia which is the Source with all the other two connotations sprouting and intended within this idea while going back even further. I use this thou when specificly doing Great Work energy as an alchemist.

When playing with others I use there ideas of the above to help blend the energies. Privately I am a 'need' magician. So I use the above ideas, mix them as necessary and add many of my own ideas such as my own God head working in the various 10 or more realities in various combinations to create what I desire. This is how I do Qabbalistic Tree work for example. By calling the various thous of various realms/realities I get...interesting...combinations...for manipulating my manifestations of Life.

Blessings,
Hooded Manus

'soft and cuddly version of daddy'? Sorry, I don't think so. I don't see anything cuddly, and soft about god.

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux.

::Edit::
Let me post more before the mods get on me for one liners without any point. GOD is a father/mother like figure of everything that lives, all knowing, unimaginable, strict as hell, and someone that every other entity sh**ts their pants (Or should) when in the presence of, and I'm sure most christians/catholics/muslims/jews, etc would agree...But as I stated before, nothing fuzzy, and cuddly about him/her/it.

This post has been edited by SangueDiNapoli: Mar 23 2006, 07:59 PM

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/evil2.gif)

In the Kabbalistic Cross and LBRP (from the Golden Dawn rite), the words are:

Thou art the power and the kingdom and the glory forever.

In the Calyx (from the Aurum Solis rite), the words are:

Thou art the power and the kingdom and the majesty forever.

alt translation: Thou art the power and the kingdom and the glory forever unto the ages.



Okay:

In both cases: what/who exactly is being addressed?

i.e. What/who is the thou?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/i_triangle.gif) Hello Ceremonial Magick is something find interesting but sadly never gone into maybe because of the length of time one needs to work the syetm or magical working?

My take on the Kabbalh is well here's my two cents

22 path of emanation all leading to the crown the great liumination/ Like a ladder, 22 paths that remind me of a sort of star map to the one source my take is the Soul seeks to reunite with the one again but must go through the map of eminations to reach to become whole again?

The Crown or top Kabbalist Sphere (The Head) all else is crude matter but the enlighten head is all knowing (infinity)! I find a good source from Gnostic Texts! Many Reincarnations till we find the way home. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cry_.gif)

Best wishes
Old Nick (IMG:style_emoticons/default/evil2.gif)

So - one interpretation is:

I am the power, and the kingdom, and the glory, forever unto the ages.

(hmmms)

In this case: why then the "thou"?
Using that form of address seems to dislocate the speaker.

If the "thou" is the "I" that speaks the words, then it turns into a recursive address.

Why incorporate that dislocative, yet recursive, stance in a ritual that is to be done daily?
Why do it? What is the purpose? What is the result?

Conversely, why not the 'thou'? As in your hypothesis on the Avatar you have created a separate entity that is in touch with the alternate reality. 'Thou' is also a blind that has been used for millenia by the Church to denote a higher power. In the Gnostic texts, anyman may achieve this enlightened 'Christ' state. I offered my opinion. You may discard it as the ramblings of sophistry...or not. There are many ways to approach this question. If you are setting the parameters of the discussion so that the arguments proposed can only fit your scenario then it isn't a discussion but an exercise in a closed paradigm logic-loop. A favorite expression: "We are not amused..." attributed to Queen Victoria, illustrates that one is capable of refering to oneself outside the normal grammatical syntax.
In a number of occult texts it is intimated that the Mage must actually experience the godhead and thereby reenact the process of creation to enable him(her) the ability to command the spirits. This is a 'secret' that is passed on to initiates when entering the Inner Mysteries of some paths. Shamanically it makes sense. Within the 'stricture' of modern Chaos Magic, Spare does this with his formula of Atavistic Resurgence. In magical formula the Mage takes on the role of the creator by either performing the rituals 'in Gods name' or by actually becoming God! I understand your questions but I think, IMHO, that you are overcomplicating the procedure. Mayhaps we are to just disagree about this issue. I wish you luck... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Honestly, I do not know the answer to why not the "thou".

I am exploring the question "why the thou?" because, time and again, encouragement is given to delve into the meaning of what is done and said during ritual - otherwise, ritual descends to being little more than imitative mummery.

Sure, I have posted the Avatar scenario elsewhere, however, that scenario is a very hypothetical approach at the moment - and, as such, only would offer a new take on it. Putting that admittedly Chaotic experiement aside here, to return to the questions for these famous rituals:

Is the Thou the Divine Genius, the Holy Guardian Angel, etc...?
Or is it indeed meant to be a recursive, self-referential, statement ritually directed?

In the case of the latter, I still wonder here why such a stance and address is taken.

Sure, there are many ways to approach explaining this issue. My questions explore what the understanding of the term (and the reasons for adopting the point of view for making the address) based upon considering two of them. So, your answer neither seems rambling, nor sophistraic, to me.

The parameters of the convo are being set here by the answers so far given. Hopefully, more people who perform this ritual and who have gained insight from it regarding the identity of the Thou will come forward and share their understanding regarding the meaning of it. If they offer different answers than those already given, I will ask questions regarding those unique answers to explore the possibilities for understanding they provide. And thus, the parameters will expand again.

Perhaps I am overcomplicating this. Yet, in light of the injunction to explore the meanings of words and gestures, the question seems simple to me - even if the various answers might lead to more involved questions for careful consideration.

Absolutely! And, may I add, that these discussions/ideas that you bring up are very good for ones mind! I enjoy them immensely and it was with Frustration that I answered tersely. Pray continue to ask these questions and pray that this reprobate stick-in-the-mud learns that he needn't answer every post and make room for others! Thanks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush2.gif)

Greetings!

The way that I understand it, is that the "thou" refers to both the ritualist and the Divine Genius, HGA ,God or whatever one wishes to call it. I am mainly going by what I've read and am able to comprehend from works like the Kybalion where it says:" The ALL in the all, and the all is in the ALL". I could be way off ( and most likely am) as I am just now starting to really delve into the subject matter instead of just skimming through the stuff. Basically what I think it means is that ,since man is created in the creator's image, that at the core one is and is connected to the divine and that is the "thou" one is refering to.

Please feel free to tear this apart as reading over it again I think that I just confused myself!

G.L.B.

Greetings

I apologise if this is considered a hijack but I have another question concerning words used in both the LBRP(Kabbalistic Cross) and the Calyx and thought that ,considering the thread title, it should go here instead of creating a new thread. So if I am mistaken please let me know so that it can be corrected.
First off I am doing the Hebrew version of the Calyx as recommended for beginners by Denning & Phillips in "The Foundations of High Magick". Basically, all the words are the same except in the K.C. one says AMEN after LEOLAM but in the calyx one says VO-ED. What I would like to find out is what is the meaning of VO-ED?

G.L.B.

The ecstatic potential of "thou" is that it is "not I", something that is not in the persona, i.e. you are addressing something greater than yourself (which may very well be your Self). It doesn't matter what it is as long as the mind/subconscious comprehends the "enormity" of the thing.

If you are trying to confine it more than that you are doing the excercise a disservice.

אמן Amen--"so be it"

ועד Vo-ed--"for ever"



I have to agree here that the whole point is that it is using the Hebrew equivalent of "Thou" it is referring to something other than oneself. If the point was to be "I am" it would have been that. Whether it may be referring to a part of the "Higher Self, Higher Intelligence, Jechidah, HGA or some other vague term" seems unimportant.

I figure, if you want to perform it as "I am the Kingdom, I am the Glory...." then change the actual wording instead of relying on some metaphysical argument as a backdoor to please the ego. It is in reference to something that is not entirely in one's self-possession and control at least grammatically and in tone.

People always cringe at this comparison even though they are so obviously closely-related, but it is the difference between "I am the Father, the Son,..." and "In the Name of the Father, the Son,....".