Aurum Solis Vs. Golden Dawn Options

Hello all!

I have some questions about the Aurum Solis.

Over the past year I have become interested in the occult, mainly in Ceremonial Magick. Most of the info that I have read has been from the net and I have found a plethora of articles and sites that deal with the Golden Dawn but very little about the A.S. What little I have found about them intrigues me quite a bit, and, seeing it recommended a number of times, I purchased "Mysteria Magica" by Denning & Phillips.

So, what I am wondering about is what are the differences between the G.D. and the A.S. I understand that the former is a Rosicrucian style and the latter is Ogdoadic and from what I can tell, Ogdoadic has something to do with the number eight and deals mostly with Greek gods and seems to use the Greek language more so than Hebrew. Other than that I'm lost to the major differences between the two. The rest look to be more... for want of a better term, minor. For instance the Golden Dawn uses the Kabbalistic Cross and the Aurum Solis use the Calyx. They seem to be the same ritual to me! The G.D. has the LBRP; Aurum Solis has Setting of the Wards. Again, to my unseasoned eye, same thing! From reading articles and people's comments about magic and the occult, it is the subtlties that have the most impact. After all, the "Devil IS in the details".... I just can't see the little bugger! lol

Any help appreciated

-- G.L.B.

p.s. I apologize if I seem a bit incoherent. It's 0744 est , I just got home from work and my head feels like it's full of oatmeal

Perhaps you have noticed that a commonality among restaurants is that they offer drinks, appetizers, daily specials, entrees, desserts, and a kid's menu.

Perhaps you have also noticed that mainstream restaurants tends to offer a variety of different options under each of those familiar food categories.

To focus on drinks: at the very least, one can get beer and liquor. Yet, even amongst the brewsky option, different varieties are available. The flavor of some beers can be heavenly. Others can taste like little more than recycled moose piss. Never mind the tongue enticing diversity of stews available for mixed liquor drinks that would boggle the mind of the Potions Professor at Hogwarts.

Nachos are nachos - and yet one can get a plate with different kinds chips, different kinds of cheese, refried beans, or perhaps beef, maybe even pork! Jalepanos? Red peppers? OoOoooo how about olives - black or green. However: in the end, nachos are nachos - much in the same way that beer is beer.

Magickal paradigms are somewhat similar to restaurants. Exercises for magickal work in various paradigms are somewhat similar to menu options. An Order that provides a pretty good workout often has postures, breathing methods, intonation instructions - then of course some form of daily ritual, banishing rituals, summoning rituals, invocation, evocation, divination, trinket charging, multidimensional pathworking, etc... Just as there are forks and knives and spoons, there also are magickal utensils like wands, and chalices, and swords (to name just a few).

And just as each restaurant has a different atmosphere, Orders tend to have respectively unique vibes.

Chowing down with the Golden Dawn seems a lot to me to be like dining at Applebees. Good ol' well known food. A star or two on the menu. Infamous chefs who got their start sweatin in the kitchen. All sorts of pretty colored crap stuck up on the walls and ceiling. Video monitors perched here and there around the bar, broadcasting various entertainment programs from the mass consciousness for consideration.

Munching at the Aurum Solis seems to me to be more like dining at an establishment that is a bit more exotic. Yeah, yeah - the menu choices are similar - and thus familiar. Yet it is the ineffable vibe of the place that seems a bit different. Their salsa has a bit more zing to my tastebuds - even if their chips are blue corn instead of yellow. They might not have a huge bar filled with liquors to make you tipsy with such spirits - but they do have an marvelous Enochian smoking room with selected grasses to sample in their Grecian bongs. And who can resist a ritual for Setting the Adamantium Wards? WOO HOO!

The bottom line is to give each a go for a bit - and keep a detailed journal to see what strikes the fanny of your fancy in the most stimulating and effective way. Start with something simple from the GD - like The LBRP. Nice little appetizer, that one. Learn and do it for a month or so, keeping your awareness fine tuned to the aroma, how the flavors massage the metaphysical tongue, and how satisfying you are after you have finished. Then, switch over to learning and doing the Calyx from the AS. Turn on all the meta-senses and savour the experience. The sights, smells, textures, scents, and flavours - take it all in, and wash it down with a tall cold glass of contemplative beer.

The differences might become more apparent to you.

This post has been edited by Praxis: Mar 12 2006, 07:08 AM

You may wish to simply compare the stated histories by each order and note the differences and similarities.

Golden Dawn History Lecture

Ogdoadic Tradition

There is a podcast that I found quite interesting at Thelema Coast to Coast with one of the higher ups of the Astrum Sophia. He specifically discusses how the Golden Dawn Tradition and the Ogdoadic differ and where the similarities lie. It's number #5 at this link.

Astrum Sophia podcast

I wouldn't try to hard to look for a "devil" in the details. Nothing will fit your desires as an individual perfectly. This is of course my personal opinion and the articles and people you have spoken to may disagree. If one looks for devils, they can certainly be found, but to use a previous analogy I would much rather spend my time in the smoke room, with a boiler maker and nachos.

This post has been edited by chaoscrowley37: Mar 12 2006, 09:57 AM

Salutations!
Thank you Praxis and Chaoscrowley37 for your replies! Still, after thinking about what Praxis said and comparing the two groups histories from the links Chaoscrowley37 posted, along with links from those sites and searching Google, I am still unclear about the differences between these two groups( In retrospect, I probably should have asked about the Major differences rather than the minor ones lol ). One site I looked at said that the A.S. sprang from the G.D. but didn't go into details about the how or why. Several sites only said, as far as differences go, was that the Ogdoadic traditions were more "Byzantium" inspired whereas the G.D. was more Rosicrucian inspired. The only thing that I understand about either is that Rosicrucianism was started or inspired by a man named Christian Rosenkreutz (sp?) while Ogdoadic, as stated from the second link C.C. provided,:

The Order identifies itself as a vehicle for the 'Ogdoadic' Tradition: "This venerable tradition, rooted in the mystical teachings of Byzantium and of the Near and Middle East, has for ten centuries run through Western history like a golden thread in a tapestry: flashing brilliantly when seen in a clear light, but in other conditions remaining strangely unperceived." ('Introduction to the Combined Edition', The Magical Philosophy,pp. xvii-xviii)

.and that

'Ogdoadic' simply means 'pertaining to the number eight' and was adopted by the Order to provide a retrospective analysis and identifier for this line of magical philosophy and practice.

I also looked through "Mysteria Magica" and could find no explaination either. So, if anybody could delineate those differences and/or point me in a direction where I can discover them I would be extremely appreciative!

Again, I apologise if I don't make much sense as I just got in from working 3rd shift and this is the only time of day that I have the time to read and post.

Much Gratuity

G.L.B.

p.s. Bym, thank you for your help! It seems someone else decided to move it though lol

GLB - my question for you at this point is:


What do you see that differentiates the Golden Dawn and the Aurum Solis compared to each other - other than their historical origins?


I ask that question to encourage you to dig into the information regarding the content - both the teachings and the practices - available, for both Orders.

**********

On a side note - I just purchased, and hopefully will soon receive, a copy of the book:

Title: Ogdoadic Magick
Author: Norman R. Kraft

As of yet, I cannot speak to what that author presents about the Aurum Solis and Ogdoadic Magick - so I can only offer that work as something possibly interesting to examine online. Perhaps that author will shed some light onto the uniqueness of this Order, compared to that which Denning and Phillips provide.

One thing I notice about comparing the two is that the aurum solis pentagram ritual seems to pack more punch, and I think this is how the pentagrams are drawn. It makes more psychological sense the way they are drawn than the way the GD has them drawn and think this filters down to the magical level. Not only to mention that the Pentagram is a microcosmic ritual which number is five where as the hexagram is a ritual of macrocosm and thus a ritual of six. this is another fact why the Aurum solis who only have 5 pentagrams(4 elements and 1 spirit) works better than the Golden dawn pentagram ritual who has 6 pentagrams(4 elements and 2 spirits).. But this is my opinion.

The AS never split off from the GD. They are completely seperate. In fact I think the AS might be older than the GD.

The AS is more greek while the GD uses hebrew. The GD uses the lotus wand as a general wand while the AS has the trident based on the letter shin and other sources. You are correct that the GD is mostly influenced by rosecrusian in spirit and masion in set up. One of our central symbols is the rose cross and the vault where christians body was found is used in the inner order which is actually the RR et AC, while the outer order which is actually the GD uses the Hall of Ma'at.

Ritual wise they are strangly similer even though they developed seperatly. You may be able to find alot more GD material due to Regardie, Crowley, and later writers such as the cicero's and Pat. Z, spilling the beans as it were. Although the AS material is becoming more common due to Dennings and Phillips writtings. Regardless of which system you choose they are both designed to get you to the same place. Bottom line go with the one that feels right.

This is what I know of the actual history.

At right around the same time period as the formation of the Golden Dawn, there was an Antiquarian group that was mainly interested in the study of occult books, mss, etc. They were not a practicing group. More of a interest group. From within that group a number of members decide to form a ceremonial order. i.e. a practicing group based on what they had been studying in theory.

The Golden Dawn and Aurum Solis have never been connected in any formal way. The founders were different people although there may have been some overlapping members at times.

Almost all Magickal orders share some common thread in the overall focus of their practices. I think both could be described as somewhat Hermetic in practice. Here is where I see some differences forming. If we move chronologically from the beginning of time forward in the chain of ideas of the two orders share many of the same neo-platonic ideas. Not the actual orders themselves but what there influences are in chronological order.

A bit of a split of focus occurs in the ideas they focus on when we hit the 15th-17th century. Here the Golden Dawn takes on Rosicrucian ideas with both Christian and Judaic mysticism. Therefore we see the influence of the German mystics of the time, and it continues from there under the influence of the Kabalah, freemasonry,etc. So at it's heart the Golden Dawn is carrying on the Rosicrucian tradition or current that was first made public by the Manifestos in the early 17th century.

The AS leans more towards the Italian Renaissance philosophers. The Ogdoadic tradition springs from a group that was formed by one of the Medici's and included some of the finest Italian thinkers of the time. I think it was called The Order of the Helmet. But don't quote me.

So the A.S. looks much more into ideas put forth by those who they consider part of the "Ogdoadic Tradition", Pico de Mirandola, Marsilio Ficino, Nicholas of Cusa, Giordano Bruno.

I would really encourage you to listen to the podcast link I posted as one of the heads of Astrum Sophia a chartered group of the Aurum Solis explains the question of the differences. He lays it out quite well and this would give you it right from the horse's mouth so to say.

I can only speak from my own observations, I have never been a member of either group so I don't want to lay out too many ideas on something I may know nothing about. I have worked with an order before and I found that the overall quality and focus of a group is largely dependent on it's members. Neither of these groups "forbids" any studies that the other shares as far as I know so they aren't actively restricting ideas they don't focus on.

One interesting thing is that the heads of the Aurum Solis and their chartered offshoots have repeatedly stated in interviews that all of the documents and teachings of the Order are public. So that by joining you would not be exposed to materials that are not available to anyone. Joining provides mentoring and group practice but it does not open any secret doors of knowledge. I don't know if the Golden Dawn has materials that are considered "Order only" documents and it might vary from GD to GD. The O.T.O. definitely has things that are meant to be obtained only by joining.

Well...here we are again... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
editted content - bym
The Aurum Solis is definitely a seperate entity from the Golden Dawn. Its roots are, like CC37 says, more derived from a Rennaisance order which used a decidedly Greek/Egyptian format...Ptolemaic origins. The 'Ogdoaic' reference has to do with the Inner Order utilizing the older eight god grouping of the Egyptian dieties as opposed to the later 'Ennead' grouping. As with all occult orders both AS and GD have closed papers on a variety of research subjects. The Aurum Solis will be glad to openly give out information to the public as it did in the Philips and Denning books but have reserved the right of full disclosure to Inner Order Companions. Also ongoing research has not been available because it still is a work in progress. I hope this doesn't put off seekers of knowledge. I do believe that the Aurum Solis is abit older than the Golden Dawn...but, visit the site, read the press and apply for membership if you really need to know! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

PS After rummaging around some more I came up with the Orders "official" biography about its history and the meaning of the Ogdoadic Tradition:

The Aurum Solis (Gold of the Sun) was founded in Britain in 1897, arising from the membership of an antiquarian society, itself founded in the eighteenth century. Unlike the Rosicrucian tradition of the Golden Dawn, the Aurum Solis is an Ogdoadic tradition, tracing its mystical teachings through Byzantium and the Near and Middle East. The word "Ogdoadic" means "pertaining to the number eight", and is chosen for its rich associations ranging from the eight notes of the completed musical scale to Pythagorean lore, wherein eight is called the number of perfection. The concepts of regeneration and completion can be seen to follow on the heels of the number eight in much the same fashion as the idea of planetary correspondences associate themselves with the number seven..

There has also been a recent schism within the body of the order. It's beginning to sound like the old OTO/OTA etc. LOL! Once politics enter the sane mind flees...

This post has been edited by bym: Mar 15 2006, 09:26 AM

As far as I know the split was not a matter of different views but an attempt to allow the North American and European branches to operate independently. The groups all still recognize the continuing independent authority of each other from what I understand. It actually sounded quite amicable when the Astrum Sophia head described it. More of an agreed decision than a rebellion or overthrow.

Ultimately, I think if one wants to see the differences and similarities of ideas they are really found through the experience of said ideas. Both groups have readily available materials that should be pursued. I'm reminded of how exotic foods are often described. It tastes "like" chicken. The description can only be given through an already known example so that we cannot actually "know" the taste itself except through the "tasting".

Just a little update!

I recently purchased three more books dealing with the A.S. and hope to receive them soon.
They are: Foundations of the Occult Philosophy, The Sword and the Serpent, and the book Praxis
mentioned, Ogdoadic Magick by Norman Kraft. Speaking of the latter, Praxis, have you received your copy
yet? If so, what are your opinions on the book?Should I cancel my order now? lol
Anyway, I just want to thank everyone for their input and, once I have read through some of the aforementioned books, I'm sure that I'll have more
questions to bug you fine folks with! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) lol

G.L.B.

I have not received my copy of the book yet - and I am starting to be sorry that I ordered it used, instead of just boning up the bucks for a new copy.

As soon as it comes in and I have a chance to read it, I will let you know how it strikes me, G.L.B.

Question: Is not The Sword and The Serpent - the edition that came out in 2004 - an omnibus containing the complete Foundations of Occult Philosophy previous published as separate works?

The Magical Philosophy was originally published in five volumes, Vol. 1, The Robe and the Ring, Vol. 2, The Apparel of High Magic, Vol. 3, The Sword and the Serpent, Vol. 4, The Triumph of Light and Vol. 5, Mysteria Magica. They were published by Llewellyn Publications in 1981. I was lucky enough to purchase the set. I had also purchased a complete set of the Equinox which was reprinted around 1970-something. I foolishly sold it (the Equinox) for bread money during some tough times...*sigh* (what an ass!)
To my knowledge the Sword and the Serpent hasn't been modified in its reissue copy...it does contain some rather valuable info. If you guts are looking for something in particular from it, I'd be glad to email some pdf'd scanned pages... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Mysteria Magica is a great book and there is also a copy of it in pdf on the SM library. I have not read the Sword and the Serpent but I have heard nothing but good things about it. You might also want to look into Planetary Magick. It is awesome.

From my understanding, "The Magickal Philosophy" was reprinted by Lewellyn under the name "Aurum Solis" series and that Foundations contains books 1&2 of Magickal Philo., The recent printing of "The Sword and the Serpent" contain books 3&4 while "Mysteria Magicka" is still book 5.

As far as reading "Planetary Magick" that will have to wait awhile unless there is a pdf floating around somewhere. Christ on a cracker! Have you seen the prices that book is selling for? It's unbelievable! It will have to wait until someone reissues the book or I can convince myself to part with the money for it lol which is almost as hard as squeezing blood from a turnip.lol
G.L.B.

1 member/s has found this topic to be useful and informative:

G.L.B.

This is a very interesting question. There are some similarities, as well as some key differences.

Each of these groups are Mystery Schools or initiatory groups drawing upon magical teachings that stretch back to Egypt. An initiatory group can be seen as an organisation that is able to lead and support an individual seeker through a system of experiences and practices which, if worked through correctly, can make that individual a fuller person.

Each organisation tends to have a form of “outer court” and “inner court,” and each celebrate both the Lesser Mysteries and Greater Mysteries. To borrow a quote from Masonry, all could loosely agree that the goal of the Lesser Mysteries is the “making smooth the rough-hewn ashlar.” Each has a series of degrees (known as “Halls” in the Astrum Sophia) encompassing certain teachings, after the completion of which you may be invited to receive initiation into a “higher” degree(s).

But the flavour and emphasis of each group are quite different. The best way to experience the differences is to practice key exercises from each system. Some specific differences are:

1) The Ogdoadic Mysteries draw their lineage predominantly from Hermetic, neo-Platonic and Renaissance sources, while the Golden Dawn, Society of the Inner Light and related groups draw more extensively upon Rosicrucian influences.

2) Inner Contacts: The Astrum Sophia is a fully-contacted esoteric Order, as is the Society of the Inner Light. Historically, Golden Dawn lodges are not contacted, although there are some exceptions.

3) The Golden Dawn is traditionally very lodge-based, as is the Inner Light. While there are group meetings and group workings performed at Houses and Commanderies of the Astrum Sophia, the bulk of the work is completed by the solo practitioner.

There are of course further differences, but those are more subjective. Perhaps the one difference we might venture to discuss pertains to the pantheons utilised. The Golden Dawn did a magnificent job of cataloguing and synthesising the diverse magical traditions found in the West. Their works are a rich, multi-coloured tapestry that can take you from Samothracian mysteries in one rite to Chaldean Oracles in the next. It is a fantastic exploration of the many-hued magical systems which have existed. The Astrum Sophia, in contrast to this rich tapestry, is more of a fine spun silk. There is a strong internal coherence to the system, and all of the fundamental rites and practices operate around a set group of deities and concepts. This can lead to building a profound relationship with the magical beings and ideas because all the exercises have a cohesiveness that is not found in many other systems.

Again, this is very subjective, and we do not say it to value one system over the other. It is simply to show that they each have a very different flavour, and in the end, the seeker must decide which flavour best suits his or her disposition.

Further "frequently asked questions" relating to the Ogdoadic Tradition can be found at the www.houseofthoth.net faq section. House of Thoth is part of the Astrum Sophia.

Best wishes

Malvhina