The suicidal ones Options

who knows what happends to the souls that belong to people whom committed a suicide?

This post has been edited by ZmiriZ: Mar 24 2005, 09:00 PM

From what I've read (well, I'm not dead yet) it is said that it will took them a lot of longer times for them to reincarnate and other bad things they'll soon find out to totally regret killing themself for. Poor souls.

That's if you're a believer of reincarnation.

The Christian tradition is that they... don't get into heaven. It's like killing someone, but with no "forgiveness period" afterwards.

Dunno about other religions.

I read on a Mediumship site, could have been Colin Fry saying that they often regret going and it is frowned upon.

If someone is so desparate that they decide to go early, I find it hard to understand why a supposedly loving God would not forgive them or make things even harder - if they couldn't cope with the horror of this life, then how will they manage with many more, especially if they are as bad or worse, sounds like hell to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I have an opinion that suicide is just silly and weak. We have the power to change our lives, it simply done by changing our focus. It's true that the future is determined by what we choose to do NOW. Just like a race driver will ALWAYS look at where he wants to go. In the bible,"knock and it will be opened to you. Look and you will find" We get not what we want in life, but what we deserve, so in my opinion, if we want to deserve whatever things we want - we got to make ourself worthy for it.

But well - I'm probably an optimist.

This got little to do with encounters/report on ghosts and is well suited on Body, Mind & Spirit forum and I'm moving it.

Buddhism and Suicide

The first precept in Buddhism is to abstain from harming living things...including oneself! There is nothing masochistic about the Buddha's teaching (such as love others but be really mean to yourself!). On the contrary, Buddhism is not only about caring for others but also about preserving a healthy body and a positive mind for oneself. Therefore, suicide is seen as morally wrong and will result in negative karmic consequences (see karma). For example, it might mean being reborn in one of the hells, or as an animal or as a hungry ghost (see samsara). To take one's own life, is also to destroy the advantage that human life affords for spiritual progress, even for gaining enlightenment.

As with most moral issues, the degree to which this can be said to be morally wrong will depend on all sorts of factors - the mental health of the individual, the external pressures bearing down on that individual, and ethical factors that might impinge on the situation. For example, to what extent is a manic depressive culpable? What about the person who commits suicide because of a broken heart, social rejection, or unbearable physical pain? What about the person who kills himself to save others (a patriot, for example, who captured by the enemy takes cyanide rather than risk revealing under torture the names of his compatriots)? And what about in the Jataka stories (stories of the Buddha's previous lives) where, as a Bodhisattva, the Buddha slits his own throat so that starving tiger cubs may feed off his blood? (The Hungry Tigress). There was also the case of Vietnamese Buddhist monks in the 1960s who set themselves alight in protest against anti-Buddhist policies.

Ultimately, the Buddhist perspective on suicide needs to be seen in the context of the four noble truths. The first of these sees life as generally a state of suffering or dissatisfaction (dukkha). Someone contemplating suicide is, in one way or another, in a state of suffering, presumably seeking a way to end that suffering. Death, they believe, will bring such suffering to an end. From the Buddhist perspective, however, committing suicide will only lead to further suffering - a worse state in fact. Consequently, suicide is futile as it only makes things worse. The answer to suffering is to uproot one's innate craving (tanha) and to tread the eightfold path to nibbana or nirvana, a 'state' beyond suffering. In the early Buddhist sangha (community of monks/nuns), attempting suicide or aiding someone to commit suicide was an offence that carried with it expulsion from the order.

The Buddha's rational solution is to work with what we are and not try to take short cuts out of suffering. This is not to underestimate the terrible suffering that anyone contemplating suicide must go through when usually emotions are strong and persuasive. Support, counselling, help - in all their various forms - are what someone in a suicidal frame of mind needs most of all.

I can't say I know anything about what happens to those who commit suicide, but I don't think making up stories about how horrible their afterlife will be is going to help anything; that is a method used my dogmatic organizations, not people aiming to cultivate wisdom and positivity. I certainly don't recommend suicide, but I don't think that it is perfectly avoidable; the cause of death is always more complex and long term than a razor or gun. Sometimes, I can't help but think many people have a genetic predisposition for murder/suicide. We can try to help people the best we can, but sometimes it is just something that the individual has to decide. It isn't my place to condemn, and it isn't my place to promise the best, either.

We can only try to fix what leads people to suicide in life; we can't determine or accurately presume what will happen to them after the act.

I have an opinion that suicide is just silly and weak.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you Kinjo.
When facing suicide there aren't two options, there are three:
- push on and live (which is the very hardest)
- kill yourself (which I can tell you, takes guts)
- sit there and do nothing (which is wimping out)

Killing yourself is probably one of the hardest things you can do. I know - I've been there. The only thing that can be considered harder is pushing aside the urge to kill yourself, and face what it is that makes you want to kill yourself in the first place.

The easy way out is just to sit there and cry... unable to live life, but unable to kill yourself. Caught in a contradiction.

We can only try to fix what leads people to suicide in life; we can't determine or accurately presume what will happen to them after the act.

So let's... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

We come to be who we are because we're influenced by our environments, our family, friends, social status etc- which results in sets of belief systems.

A person belief system is core determining factor of how he will perform in life. Belief systems is what actually will make or brake a person. It's a "program".

Suicide is sometimes "unavoidable" for some person, because in my opinion, they have as set of self-limiting-beliefs about themself and what they are capable of. This are usually primarily influenced by their family values, society, and other "programmings" other people, opinion or beliefs they have let people to set and sink into their mind consciously or subsconciously. It first began with a thought > opinion > beliefs > convictions. And they're now convinced that life is no good and it's better be dead than living in misery? IMHO, it is a self induced misery - program.

Are people with suicidal tendencies hopeless? Off course not. It may be hard to change them, but it's NOT impossible. Impossible = I'm possible.

Suicidal people "think differently" than happy people. Suicidal person constantly focuses on the negative aspects of their life. They are usually a pessimist. A happy person tend to look at the bright side of mostly everything even when life has dealt them sets of terrible cards - they usually can shrug it off quickly - AS IF - a lot better cards will be dealt tommorow. They are convinced beyond the shadow of doubts that a better day will come.

I think it's all the matter of focus. When you ONLY think of happy thoughts, then your emotions WILL follow. If you slump your shoulders, then you tend to get depressed and vice versa. Depressed and happy people walk, talk, and therefore think differently. This is physiology, and when you change your physiology - the way your body moves, they way you breath, ways you pull and stretches your face, etc - then your emotions will follow - vice versa - then your way of thinking will follow - which will be refelcted in your actions, resulting in a whole different results - thus bettering your life. The very same concept and psychology which make a rich person a far different person from the poor. The rich always gets richer and the poor gets poorer. It's ALL MIND - like the kybalion would say.

When you're depressed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif) - as in suicidal person (IMG:style_emoticons/default/butcher.gif) , try this experiment: Go to a mirror and watch yourself making the most stupid silly faces you can make, then force yourself to laugh wholeheartedly even histerically like there is no tommorow (IMG:style_emoticons/default/uglyhammer.gif) - Make a complete fool of yourself and notice the instant change in your state of mind and emotions- you simply stop being depressed at that instant moment you change your physiology.

With the same pyschology and psychology concept, if I am to help to better a suicidal person, then the very first thing I'll do is simply talk them out to change their mental focus. Yawning are contagious, so is laughter and I'll pace them to it. Ask them sets of calculated questions that FORCED them to think about what they look forwards to, what they're grateful for in life, who did they love and how does that made them feel, distort the time and bring them to the future - of their design - what would that like? and any other thought's that will make them feel better and keep them focused to move FORWARD towards realizations of these thoughts.

Well, I hope I can explain this in a shorter post, but you get the idea I'm trying to share.

Wherever one goes after a suicide is left to the sole belief of the person. From rencarnation, to space abductions. Or maybe the soul tunes itself to where it is trained to go, after life.

Well from what I've read those who commit suicide go to the spirit world and are given MORE attention or something to cope with what happened or something along those lines. When I compare this with other ways suicides are dealt with, the version I've found seems better and more peaceful. Though it's still a bad idea to go and kill yourself anyhow; if you fail or succed it still leaves pain behind in the form of whatever for whoever loves you even if the other side seems to be a great and comforting place...

In life we walk many paths , most of which is forced upon us in our developing years . Some of us as Kinjo stated accept what we've been dealt with , either a good or bad hand with a sence of non-challance , our early years are safe knowing that we are sheltered by loving parents . Their has to be a transition zone when the beliefe systems shoved into our faces by our parents are tested to be effective or not , to cope in a ever changing world .
I think our predisposition to suicide is brought on by our unwillingness to stomach a change or even a challenge to which we are not ready for , thus we have a breakdown , which is parrallel to how much of our innocense we have lost .
I think that their are many reasons why people commit suicide . One of them is A ugly , ugly world nipping away at our sanity or even our beauty. So in my opinion our resilience to one of the many ugly faces of suicide is determined by ,how much of our innocense that we've lost.

What we see, what we read and who we associated with - unconsciously tells and influences us to become who we are today. Winners fly with the eagles. Birds of the same feather flocks together. So choose and design your environment carefully to be in "condusive" environment to help brings us towards where we want to go. This is also the same reason I stop watching the crime channel, some sort of news, etc so my mind won't be polluted with these junks who do not serve or benefit me in any way. Just a thought.

What we see, what we read and who we associated with - unconsciously tells and influences us to become who we are today. Winners fly with the eagles. Birds of the same feather flocks together. So choose and design your environment carefully to be in "condusive" environment to help brings us towards where we want to go. This is also the same reason I stop watching the crime channel, some sort of news, etc so my mind won't be polluted with these junks who do not serve or benefit me in any way. Just a thought.

I have to disagree with you Kinjo about your theory behind the crime channel , simply put the criminal deals out death and violence on everyday paople without any remorse . However if an act of violence was to be executed by a innocent , weather it be intentional or not it could result in a very severe negative psychological response.
As an example a boy throws himself in front on to a on coming truck and gets crushed . To cut a long story short , the truck driver was so stressed by this incident , although it was clearly not his fault , ended up being instituationalized. :medicine:So we all want happiness in our lives but its never gonna happen for everyone , and it does include rich and powerful , all it takes is a growing disease like depression to take it all away , I feel that i dont need to say any more about this . But I do think that being true to ourselves , being sincere and getting the right kind of help is a step in the right direction. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/help.gif)

This post has been edited by Starlit Knight: Mar 29 2005, 07:52 PM

Well...when I got help from professionals it only made my depression worse, it made me more sad that others cared for me and what not. I don't know but I was weird than in my way of thinking. Now I don't take medicine or go see a therapist as I can do that myself. I like doing things myself and if I need someone to talk to I can always talk to friends, why pay money to talk to someone? It juut seems strange to me but that's just me...

The only thing that can be considered harder is pushing aside the urge to kill yourself, and face what it is that makes you want to kill yourself in the first place.

I wonder just how many of us know how true this is.

Starlit Knight, I don't have any theory behind the crime channel (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) what I am saying was to filter out anything which did not serve our goals. I am saying that too much TV is bad and they didn't call it "TV programs" for nothing.

Starlit Knight, I don't have any theory behind the crime channel (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) what I am saying was to filter out anything which did not serve our goals. I am saying that too much TV is bad and they didn't call it "TV programs" for nothing.

Could'nt it be just a little bit of a tveory ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

This post has been edited by Starlit Knight: Mar 30 2005, 02:25 AM

Suicide is a choice, an act of Will, it is the expression of Free Will.
Suicide is proscribed in many of the worlds religions, and is often seen as a 'cowards way out'.
I myself have been close to suicide, and see it as a legitimate act for any person who wishes to do so.

I am not sure why the soul of a suicide would have more trevails in any afterlife that exists, unless we accept that 'life' has a specific purpose as a testing ground for the afterlife that follows death.

Come to think of it , are their any recorded incidents where a person has commited suicede , had a near death experience and brought back. Was their the old theory that we are all familiar with or was it something else.

Thinking further, do we know exactly what happens to any of the people who pass over?

I have often been at mediumship demonstrations and the person usually comes through proving that they know someone in the room and they bring through little things that happened during their physical lifetimes; I have never heard any real descriptions of what existence is like on the other plane only that they often reassure us that they are happy now or at peace now.

Might be worth researching this if anyone has more time than me right now..

Must fly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/witch.gif)

I was extreamly depressed about a year ago for a while and it mainly all boiled down to not having my prorities straight and not exercising my willpower. I went on anti-depressents with the intent to straighten out my life while I had the ambition and positive energy the pills gave me. I didn't let myself get addicted to the pills like a lot of people do, I made small changes and had big realizations.

The only thing that can be considered harder is pushing aside the urge to kill yourself, and face what it is that makes you want to kill yourself in the first place.

Ya, That is sooo true. I never wanted to kill myself... contemplated it but only to grasp an understanding of why others do it.

I have a friend who is manic-depressive and she cuts herself... She doesn't know why she gets depressed but I think that its because she uses drugs and drinks more then she can handle. Also shes a bitch and thinks shes better then other people and doesn't treat people the way she would like to be treated.


But back on topic... I don't think anything different happens to people who kill themselfs compared to some one who dies naturaly... or unnaturally. If I didn't like my life then I would kill myself if I wasn't smart enough to figure a way out of the hole I dug myself in or was thrown in. I think that If I got my eyes poked out, my tounge cut off and pencils jabbed in my ears then I would be pretty depressed if I wasn't alowed to kill myself.

I have seen a man slowly committing suicide with eyes wide open and filled with sorrow . His presence did I miss for quite a while , until one day I seeked him out amongst millions to behold the same body cocooned by peace . I was astonished by the change that had overtaken John .
Later on I moved into a house where John had passed away , a long time before his death to a more peaceful place. John suffered from a mental illness , I would see him hanging around here and there , he was a heavy smoker and had a heavy coff , I suspect he's lungs were in a very poor condition , (thus the slowly committing suicide) .
John , from my perpective did not live a happy life . The following is speculation , I believe he came down with a life endind prob. He's Aura of peace was highly likely because of this knowledge . He knew he was gonna die soon , to leave the suffering behind .
Where is John now ? Heaven , I think , even though he knew the consequences of his habit , given the state he was in . John found peace near the end , he stood out amongst the crowd , I think deep inside I crave to be passed away before my death....hopefully soon. PEACE.

As far as I konw, there is a certain time proper for the souls to ascend to the next level. People tend to die when "the skyes are open". If someone commits suicide when the skyes are not open, he can't find his peace anymore. Does anyone else know more on the subject?

The first precept in Buddhism is to abstain from harming living things...including oneself!
The Buddha's rational solution is to work with what we are and not try to take short cuts out of suffering. This is not to underestimate the terrible suffering that anyone contemplating suicide must go through when usually emotions are strong and persuasive.

However, if there is little left with which to work then life becomes empty and pointless. It could be the social stigma that the act of suicide has instilled in the Western mind that inhibits freedom of movement - the fear of the horror, the loneliness, regret, guilt, humiliation, remorse and so on for those who are the "survivors".

Maybe it is time to understand that this little life that you own is personal and the decision to make or take is also personal.

With the passage of time and the maturing (hopefully) of intellect, it is maybe possible for some to look beyond the here and now, to the wisdom of the ancients and to the direction of choice - to a new beginning.

Greetings!
When I was young my best friend selfdestructed. I knew him very well and it still didn't register the depth of what he felt... I was very happy when, about 5-6 days later, he came back to tell me not to be sad and that he had work to do. Over the next decade or so I would catch glimpses of his face in a throng of people, always moving away from me. I was content. Now I'm much older and wracked with illness. The pain of everyday living is incredible. For the first time in my life I know what it is to want to die. But, there are too many things left in this world to do. That is my gut feeling. I used to get pissed off with suicidal people and now, I just can't ... I can't bear the idea of someone suffering needlessly. It is your choice to kill yourself. But if you do don't expect histrionics from others...be at peace with your decision. Enough of my maudlin ramble... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleeping_.gif)

I have an opinion that suicide is just silly and weak. We have the power to change our lives, it simply done by changing our focus. ..... What we see, what we read and who we associated with - unconsciously tells and influences us to become who we are today. Winners fly with the eagles. Birds of the same feather flocks together. So choose and design your environment carefully to be in "condusive" environment to help brings us towards where we want to go. This is also the same reason I stop watching the crime channel, some sort of news, etc so my mind won't be polluted with these junks who do not serve or benefit me in any way. Just a thought

With all due respect Bym, the choice of words in your reply appears to assume a personal possibility? Nothing could be further from reality as I am a coward.

| Kinjo's words of wisdom must be taken to account, and if you can't beat 'em avoid 'em.

To answer the original question - nobody really knows what a soul is (or even if such a thing exists) and nobody knows what happens to the souls of dead people regardless of how they died. Various religions push theories, and you can choose which of those you think is right.

The suicide debate goes beyond the original question. I myself have been suicidal in the past and have stood on a cliff edge contemplating taking one small step into oblivion. Anyone who thinks suicidal people are weak, or taking an easy option out, are wrong. To take your life is very hard indeed, you have to overcome the whole social and physiological conditioning of the human body and mind which want, more than anything else, to live.

I have no idea why there is such social stigma around suicide. Surely if we accept that everyone has a right to live, then we must also accept peoples right to choose to die.

I agree with you Bym; it often takes personal suffering to truly understand the wish to leave this plane. I know it well having been through this at the height of some physical and emotional suffering some years back.

This is just our physical life, we live on, if we decide to go sooner it needs to be a decision made with due consideration to the people we will leave behind, but also, there comes a point when the people left must accept that it would be selfish to have us stay if we are suffering without hope of recovery or reasonable quality of life.

I don't think we have to come back or take longer to incarnate again or any other thing if we go early; I think there is work to be done on all planes and if we haven't been able to use our gifts here (having tried) I am pretty certain that we get to be useful elsewhere.

People who seem to be for life at any cost remind me of the Catholic girls who may have been raped but are refused abortions by the people who are so pro-life. It makes a loving 'God' out to be a bad, bad person.


*Not sure I have put this very well, please take it in the spirit it is intended without due attention to the possible clumsiness of each word (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused012.gif)

A once close friend of mine took his own life nearly ten years ago ... I learnt from his Mum during a medium demonstration (in front of nearly fifty people) that 'Mike' (not his real name) had killed himself by throwing himself off a multi storey building ...

It was 'Mike' himself who'd made contact with me to pass on to his Mum in the audience ... unbeknown to me at first as I'd not seen 'Mike' for about five years ...

Anyway ... after passing on his survival after death proof to his Mum, the audience and myself, Mike has kept in contact with me.

He's made amends with me for falling out with me and spreading dirt (he wasn't into mystic things which me and his Mum were and he'd thought I was gay for being into it) ....

One of the many reasons he took his own life was his use of hard drugs and his realisation he'd made more mistakes than successes ...

Anyway ... his progression through various levels of the other dimensions have been perfectly signposted to me via his many contacts.

He has been treated kindly; he has been nursed through his personal torments and prepared for a 'parallel existence' to experience the lessons he was meant to on life .... incidentally he and many other suiciders stick together and the general consensus is that suiciders volunteer for the experience ... for family members and friends to feel what it is like to have someone close end their own life .... in fact it appears 'Mike' will be involved in an incarnation where an offspring will take their own life.

'Mike' has grown in energy from a rather miserable, nervous 'ex-friend' asking for forgiveness to a witty spirit who is quite knowledgeable on the quiet (he was a drop out and a bottom grader in life) ....

He has successfully called my name on this plane .... played a game of 'morse code' with me ... an early form of communication where he would tap a sound on a nearby table until I recognised it was him.

I have not been informed of any 'punishment' or 'forfeit' given to him by way of his suicide ... apparently the consensus is that the right of free will includes the choice of taking your own life.

I, personally, have been in the awful situation of attempting to take my own life on three occasions ... the last time filling my car with exhaust fumes .... it is not a nice thing to have to be faced with but I can vouch it is a scenario where there really is no other choice .... on this occasion I played 'Ascension' on the car tape player .... sat for two hours and had a huge OBE and then came back to a body with a serious headache ....

I have learned that it is generally those who know there is no such thing as 'death' that will take their own lives; 'Mike' I have learned is a 'suppressed old soul' who chose an incarnation with limited access to his over-self ... in order to be there for his retarded younger brother; his loving sister; his cruel father and his mediumistic mother ..... it was a family karma thing ... a family agreement that one of them would be 'lazy and the black sheep' ... during life this was what frustrated him ... and through hard drugs he apparently learnt to reach out to his true potential ... but it became too much for him.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/black eye.gif)

This post has been edited by Mr_Merlin: Jun 1 2005, 02:30 AM