Why?, Sacrifice is no way to go. Options

I hate those freaks who are so obsessed with Magick that they actually sacrifice animals. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angry_pissed_off_emoticon.gif)
I really wonder..... What's the use of sacrificing? Is it really needed that you take the life of a poor animal for such a thing! I may only be 12 years old but..... I say no more sacrificing. Anyone with me? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Excuse me, but you are way out of line. I practice santeria, and in that faith sacrificing animals is a common thing, and in most cases it is NOT done for malicious purposes. Cultures from all times, all over the world practice sacrificing animals, the early jews, for example, sacrificed animals. I suggest you read up on your religions, before you go calling people freaks who are 'obsessed' with magic(k), We as beings at the top of the food chain kill animals for food, and skin them for clothing, I see NOTHING wrong sacrificing an animal to honor a tradition, and any gods be it christian, or otherwise. I commend you trying to jump head in into a controversial topic, knowing there are alot of more experienced people than you on the forum but, do me a favor, step back, and take a look at everything before putting your hands to the typing. Capisce?

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux.

Sorry, I didn't mean people that, like you do it for a purpose. It is mean I think, but do as you wish. I was talking about magick n00bs who think just because they start doing these arts that they are all pro and stuff and immediatley start doing the sacrificing. What animals do you sacrifice? People that sacrifice cats and dogs with no intentions are who I hate. I'm fine with sacrificing small animals, but not every time you use magick. It's wrong to kill that many animals that fast.

Sincere apologies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sacrifice moderatley.

Your not a freak.

Again, sorry about that "freak" comment.

I'm Sorry!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cry_.gif)

Hundreds of cows are killed at once, for food. So, are people who eat hamburgers supporting freaks whom use that money they make to suppoty families? Not to be rude, but the animals that I have, and may sacrifice is for my mind only. As for the 'n00bs', I practice alone, and I had to start somewhere, did that make me a freak the first time I ofered a sacrifice to any god? I, afterall, was a 'n00b' to sacrificial offerings. And sacrificing for no intentions makes no sense because the act of sacrificing is to fulfill a prayer, or a working, so you're just talking about animal cruelty in which this post should've gone offtopic, and been "I hate (not even usin the word hate, the word hate, and these forums don't go together) animal cruelty, don't you?".

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux.

Hundreds of cows are killed at once, for food. So, are people who eat hamburgers supporting freaks whom use that money they make to suppoty families? Not to be rude, but the animals that I have, and may sacrifice is for my mind only. As for the 'n00bs', I practice alone, and I had to start somewhere, did that make me a freak the first time I ofered a sacrifice to any god? I, afterall, was a 'n00b' to sacrificial offerings. And sacrificing for no intentions makes no sense because the act of sacrificing is to fulfill a prayer, or a working, so you're just talking about animal cruelty in which this post should've gone offtopic, and been "I hate (not even usin the word hate, the word hate, and these forums don't go together) animal cruelty, don't you?".

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux.

Greetings 'SangueDiNapoli' ,

You bring up a valid point. In many traditions animal sacrifice is practiced to this day. In fact my wifes father sacrificed a goat for us or had it done by a Muslim priest for us during a holiday this year which is simular to an Islamic Christmas.
<My wife is Muslim I am Pagan.>We sent the money to him to have it done. As is tradition if you can not have it done yourself you pay to have it done for you.

By no means did I mean that animal sacrifice should not be practiced at all. I have no place standing in between a man and his God and the manner of worship. I simply am saying that in my system I do not practice animal sacrifice.

I have much respect for Sanetaria. I live in NYC. A pretty common practice here!

This post has been edited by smasher666: Apr 26 2006, 03:51 AM

I understand, and I don't have a problem with people who oppose to animal sacrifice, that's life for you. Just the fact that he implied that people who sacrificed animals were 'freaks'. But, he said sorry, and I gave my two cents on the subject, so everything's fine. I live in NYC, too, so I know how much of a common practice it is, too..Reminded of it everytime I go to the local 'botanica' to pick up supplies. It's not even just the Santeria, I'm a catholic pantheist (Talk about mixing, and matching, eh'? lol.) and like to work with other gods that require sacrifice as well (Ironically I've only given 1 sacrifice of goldfish..There went my secrecy).

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux.

I understand, and I don't have a problem with people who oppose to animal sacrifice, that's life for you. Just the fact that he implied that people who sacrificed animals were 'freaks'. But, he said sorry, and I gave my two cents on the subject, so everything's fine. I live in NYC, too, so I know how much of a common practice it is, too..Reminded of it everytime I go to the local 'botanica' to pick up supplies. It's not even just the Santeria, I'm a catholic pantheist (Talk about mixing, and matching, eh'? lol.) and like to work with other gods that require sacrifice as well (Ironically I've only given 1 sacrifice of goldfish..There went my secrecy).

.::Sempre Bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux.

Well actually Sanetaria has some close ties to the christian religion. I always see them burning saint candles <as do I> ect.
I must confess I am far from a scholar on the subject but have lived in both Washington Hieghts and the Bronx so I have great respect for the people I have met who are practicing something closer to my pagan religion than the main stream. If you live in NYC email me and lets meet up sometime.

im not a christian though. neither am I jewish. I'm atheist. I just do magick for fun. I didnt mean people are freaks who do it to offer to the gods are freaks. people who practice magick for fun and sacrifice...... ah forget it... im done fighting.

They burn saint candles because the orishas (Santeria Gods) were syncretized with catholic saints when they were brought to cuba as slaves. They had to hide their religion, and what better way than to disguise it behind catholocism. When Santeros pray to the image of a catholic saint, they're really praying to the orisha. i work with the saints, and orishas seperately, so I don't use catholic saint images to pray to the orishas, to me, it's disrespectful to both parties. What pary ot NYC do you live in now? I live in the Bronx...And to forest elf, you've contradicted yourself a few times already, i think you made a good choice, lol...Killing or Abusing animals for sick pleasure=bad. Sacrificing or killing animals for our survival, or spiritual practice=Tolerated. I think we could all agree on that.

.::Sempre bene::..::Chris::.
-Fiat Lux

P.S: DOn't be discouraged to post in the future Forest elf, this is afterall 'fight club'.

thank you for realizing what i was saying.

My vote simply states that I don't sacrifice animals in my workings. I personally see nothing wrong with those practices that sacrifice, then eat, etc.

I think I understand what you are saying though. Such as, people who have in no way an idea of how to practice magick and the only solution is to sacrafice a puppy. Yeah, I've actually met people like this. They're not really 'sacrificing' anything though. They actually don't understand the sanctity of a sacrifice, and think terminating a life is enough to get your foot in the door with the proverbial dark underlord and get everything you want. It's usually people like this who give a bad rap to the rest of the community.

I've actually read a bit on vodou. Now THAT is a beautiful religion. It tears me apart when you mention it's name and people cringe and tell you how evil it is. Sacrafice in that religion isn't what you think it may be. I read one article about a man, who had been crippled by a jealous neighbor coveting his land, had been carried into the hut of a vodou priest. The priest employed the power of a diety and began beating the man with a black hen. (not bruising him, beating off the curse) He then ripped the head from the hen and 'washed' the man in blood. The man afterwards was able to walk out of the hut without any assistance.

Then there's the sacrifice like Aleister Crowley, who presumably sacrificed over 2000 virgins. People outside the community gasp in horror at this, people inside chuckle and say.."He should have been writing 'how to books' for the ladies man". Hehhe..or at least I do, truthfully he would have made more money, but money wasn't really his goal now was it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

If an entity acknowledges you as God or as godlike then no an offering is not neccessary, However it may make things easier to make friends lol

i don't know if it really is necesary.
For now, i believe its not necesary. That does not mean it could not be helpful.
Eating with a fork and knife is not necesary, yet for some reason people do it.

yet another tool of the trade, one wich i do not use, ... yet.

I think it was in the satanic bible or maybe a book by crowley, I don't remember but i remember reading that their is a specific charge that emenates at the moment of death. If this is channeled into the working it gives it sufficant power. Also blood is usefull for manifestations.

I view it as impolite to not offer something. Not necessarily animal but something, possible nice incense or oils. It is like when a good friend visits; you sit and have tea or sandwiches. Just good manners.

I voted that animals sacrifies are not needed. First thing I practiced Santeria when i was back in Puerto Rico, I still practice until this moment but not as a full time like in the past. My schedule is too busy now. Second I use to make sacrifies to the Orishas but not of animals but special type of foods that were related to the specific Spirit. Third if you are going to put a question like this one be more specific cause I know there is more than one way to offer sacrifies to the Gods or Spirits. For example you can sacrify some of your busy time or an important date for you to do journey to some Gods, or you can make a sacrifice walking on your needs to a certain place to honor a God or Spirit, or you can make a sacrifice of not eating for 3 or 7 days, or you can make a sacrifice or you favorite food or the Spirit or God favorite food, or you can make the sacrifice to buy and expensive ring, pendant, or artifact to the Spirit or God, you see there is a lot of ways to do sacrifice the thing is to be certain that the God or Spirit will agree on the sacrifice you are doing for them. They might not like animal sacrifice or the animal you are sacrificing is one they love and if you sacrifice it to them they will be pissed up. The animal sacrifies are to be done by an expirience person. It is too risky like I said before if the animal you are sacrificing is one that the entity love or like you might be in big trouble. One more warning with this kind of sacrifice the entity gain so much power everything can get out of hands so be causous and leave the animal sacrifices to the experts.

I believe that animal sacrifice is acceptable as long as it is done humanely and for the right reasons. Among many of the african tribes cattle is still the only form of currency that is used and if they need the help of the spirits they will use them as sacrifice. Much the same way as a Christian would give a donation in church. If you then look at the cost of a single cow you can start to understand how much this act costs them and what their dedication must be to offer such a gift. In other african traditions a man must give a sacrifice to the spirits in order to earn the right to marry up until 70 years ago this had to be the blood of an opposing tribesmen. They have now thankfully changed this to give the option of a bull instead. Considering the alternative i would pick the bull.

I voted No (The "soft" no, without the exclamation point) because animal sacrafice isn't needed to do magic, but, I respect those of Afro-Carribean faiths that do do it as part of thier practice, and I see nothing "wrong" with doing it.

-F.F.

I would have to say no, without the exclamation point.

I have only been in the presence of one animal sacrifice, a chicken. Energetically, all I observed with a climactic 'spike' of energy at the moment of the sacrifice, which is structurally the same as an individual who has come out of a debate dominating his opponent. The empowerment apparently gained from being able to so completely dominate another living creature, and exercising that power to take its life, can be gained otherwise. The energy was given over to a the spirit being called, and trasnferred from the individual to the structure of the spirit, strengthening its presence significantly.

So, certainly a valid practice, but really only means of empowering the ego as far as my single observation has led me to believe - hardly a study.

As far as sacrificing other things, incense, bread, herbs, etc., even blood if you can get your hands on it, has served me well when i have the supplies. giving of my own energy is just as effective though, normally I only sacrifice something if I am, for some reason, preoccupied with another task in conjunction with the ritual itself. I burn incense to the spirits of mercury during tarot card readings, for instance, simply because it is currently easier for me to 'plug them in' to some prepared energy source, rather than to maintain an outgoing current while going about my task. However, my attention has grown significantly in the past few years, and in time it is my intention to abandon sacrifice all together.

An adept should be able to provide for all of his own energetic needs, without the requirement of an external source. In my humble opinion.

peace

Assuming that we are not discussing bored teenagers slaughtering black cats in the neighborhood cemetery, I offer the following..

Given that the sacrificial animals are absorbed at death and incorporated into the essence of the practitioner or the entity summoned, it's energy in/energy out philosophically speaking. Thus far, sacrifice has not been necessary for my workings, but it would be hypocritical to condemn others for this practice.

The energy release and the physical matrix represented by the blood has been paramount in many religious practices. The, now largely metaphorical, transformation of wine to blood in the Christian sacrament is a remnant of these practices. In my tradition, the soul/life energy is not destroyed by death. Linkages established through sacrifice connect religious practitioners with the larger spirit of the animals as well as linking the animal oversoul to the entity/deity involved. In my opinion, the sacrificial animal dies a nobler death than the one who becomes Sunday dinner.

motsie

Animal sacrifice is not "needed" or required in general magick. I am not opposed to people who follow a belief system that includes animal sacrifice, within reason of course. Sure animals are killed for food but there's the purpose - food. If you practice voodoo or santeria animal sacrifice has a symbolic purpose and its valid. Killing a cat just to see it bleed is simple, brutal slaughter.

I do think there is a distiction between sacrifice and slaughter.

I agree

I am just wondering if people who sacrifice the animals for a specific intent,charge them somehow.
I mean, i could relate this sort of as an animal being used as a typ of talisman to do something.

I would rather stay away from sacrifice.
Becuase the animal is a living being,it might also effect the outcome of what you want.(animal with negative and fearfull emotion)
And about the food, i like to eat maily fruits and vegatables.

This post has been edited by AstralFlare: Sep 16 2006, 02:54 PM

I said just a simple NO, because the poll is about animal sacrifice, but I think that some kind of sacrifice is allways needed. It could be just some incense or food, or just the time you've spent on some rituals, but it could be the blood of something, or someone... In the case of blood, if I want a real sacrifice, I have to offer my own blood, not the blood of some animal...

On the topic of animal sacrifice I have no problem with it, though I do get angered when I hear of wanna be satanists sacrificing a black cat on halloween because they think it is cool.

I dont't partake in animal sacrifice...It can be an OK thing, but I really am more in favour of incense, or food sacrifice.

For myself I think its always important to be mindfull of whether my symbolism has become more important than what it symbolizes. For me magick is about evolution not devolution. Each to their own. I find it all a bit illusory and self deceiving if my mental and spiritual evolution does not run concurrently with my physical practices and actions. I honestly don't know about santeria, but for the magickal currents where animals are sacrificed to represent the death of personal characteristics or negative aspects, i find this a cheap and lazy alternative to developing a real sense of will. If you are someone for whom it takes a real effort of will to kill, then maybe animal sacrifice could be utilised effectively as a method of psychic shock in aid of spiritual growth. Yet i suspect that considering what we currently understand of human evolution and principles of rythm, then on our evolutionary journey we are currently on the pendulum swing away from animal consumption, and so in regards to the last sentence, you have probably already reached a stage of personal evolution that would provide you with the required spiritual and mental skillset to acquire growth without such "real" psychic shocks (ie your imagination is already good enough, you dont need to kill for real, and even further than that you probably dont even need to "imagine" killing to inspire growth). In fact doing so requires such an effort of will because you are inspiring yourself to "devolve" against your higher selfs and the universes better judgement.

Some people need to rape to discover that raping is bad. Some people understood the text book and dont need a practical examination. I am in no position though to say that animal sacrifice is bad. Only that for myself, it is a purile and unnecessary misuse of energy, mentally; spiritually; and physically.

For me it simply seems unnecessary. I just don't see the need for it. I eat meat almost exclusively (not much choice), but never felt the need to get a live animal just to kill it later in the name of some god. I figure my 'sacrifice' is taking good care of the pets I have now and willingly accepting responsibility for their welfare.

I like to burn a little bit of incense and light the oil lamps on my altar at least once every couple of days. My gods seem to like that. Also, I've found that just saying a word of thanks from time to time pays dividends, just like every other relationship. Gods don't like being taken for granted, any more than people do.

Sometimes I think its funny that people have big extended rituals to thank their Gods for something. I'm just like Hi Poppa, Hi Momma, thanks for ______. I love you guys!! Bye now...

They seem content with that, and some incense...

Sometimes I think its funny that people have big extended rituals to thank their Gods for something. I'm just like Hi Poppa, Hi Momma, thanks for ______. I love you guys!! Bye now...

They seem content with that, and some incense...

alright since you posted in fight club I have a duty to voice my opinion on your comment. First I noticed your age (granted you could be lying about it) so I immeditatly think of Erik Erikson an Neo Freudian and his cyles of human development.


1. Stage One Oral-Sensory: from birth to one, trust vs. mistrust, feeding;
2. Stage Two Muscular-Anal: 1-3 years, autonomy vs.doubt, toilet training;
3. Stage Three Locomotor: 3-6 years, initiative vs.inadequacy, independence;
4. Stage Four Latency: 6-12 years, industry vs.inferiority, school;
5. Stage Five Adolescence: 12-18 years, identity vs.confusion, peer relationships;
6. Stage Six Young Adulthood: 18-40 years, intimacy vs.isolation, love relationships;
7. Stage Seven Middle Adulthood: 40-65 years, generativity vs.stagnation, parenting;
8. Stage Eight Maturity: 65 years until death, integrity vs.despair, acceptance of one's life.


These years have been reranged many times by neo fruedians, but not in your favor. So yes for the point you are at in the cycle and development of your psyche I would say "Hi Poppa, Hi Momma, thanks for ______. I love you guys!! Bye now..." is fine.