To Triangle Or Not, Evocation to visible appearance Options

Greetings!
Why do we wish to summon spirits and have them manifest in corporeal form? The use of the Triangle to facilitate this will get you results. Yes, it is a tool but it is not necessary if the entity being evoked has a corporeal form to manifest to begin with
I have my own experiences/thoughts on the matter but I'm tired of talking to myself and would love to hear from some of you mages that do this sort of thing...
I received some very pointed instruction concerning the Triangle of the Art from a series of magical evocations with the 'angel'/entity Uriel. Supposedly the same Uriel of Dr. Dee fame. It gelled my mind about a variety of things concerning geometry and the Art. I'd like some fresh perspective....it will help to possibly loosen the calculi around my brain! duh.....And will prove to be enlightening for some. Thanks! -Bym (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wheelchair.gif)

I spent alot of time constructing my wooden triangle, and the black mirror that slides into it, and once I finally used it, found no benefits to evocations with it.
In fact, I felt the presence much more limited. I know that's a "good" thing in most cases, but I prefer the feeling that the spirit I'm working with is actually in the room with me. If I don't use the triangle, I know the spirit is all around me because of it's smothering effect it has on me and the circle. When I use it, it's just not very personal at all.
Alot of people are of the opinion that the triangle is a gateway and that it needs to be used extensively to become a powerful tool. I haven't really used mine that much, so I suppose I'll keep using it until I've used it at least 20 times, and then I'll decide if I still want it.

bym, may I ask what Uriel had to say about it? Is he for it, or against it? What do you think about people that evoke only using the triangle, no circle?

This post has been edited by altpath: Nov 28 2006, 11:38 PM

Bym, do you mind clarifying your point of "if the entity being evoked has a corporeal form to manifest to begin with". Are you suggesting some entities have a material "body" outside of evocational environments (smoke, liquids . . .)? Would that be an actual "other" body that resides somewhere "here"? Or some consistant platonic "pre-form" potentiality?

I second altpath's questions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

In addition, would this be the same question for those that would evoke a spirit into a (seperate) circle?
(this question may be going somewhere)

This post has been edited by palindroem: Nov 29 2006, 08:04 AM

I have rarely used the triangle so I am not sure how much I can add to this. The few times I have used it the tool seemed to be a none issue and I never received a physical manifestation. The one time I have gotten such a manifestation was without the triangle. I was under the impression that the triangle's main use was as a focus point for the attention of the magician and the spirit.

Greetings!
Foolish me...I just now noticed an older thread by Vesna that dealt with the use of the Triangle...
I'm not interested in a poll but rather a discussion as to a magicians use of this tool to perform evocations to visible appearance. I apologize for this redundancy (in part) to Vesna and those who participated in the other thread.

It has been my experience and therefore, my opinion, that the Triangle of the Art is a classic example of the use of sacred geometry (for those semanticists out there, please take this in the context it was given) to help facilitate the communication between entities. In classic texts the Triangle represents manifestation acting upon a lens effect that reaches from the mental realm down through the astral and ends in the physical. It is a tool to help materialize effects from the mental and astral into the physical.
The Triangle can be used as a focal point but so can anything for that matter, ie sigils, talismans, mandalas or yesterdays dinner.
The most common use of the Triangle is to 'fix' an entity within its confines for a variety of reasons. This is, IMHO, the secondary use. The Triangle is used to Manifest the energy and/or semblance of an entity. If you use the Triangle only on the astral plane then its effect will go no further than the astral plane. By using the Triangle in the physical you are opening a conduit from the Mental and Astral to the Physical. The mechanics of this device rely heavily upon its intrinsic use of the Elementals of this plane in conjunction with the will of the operator. Elementals are easily summoned into the Triangle.

"if the entity being evoked has a corporeal form to manifest to begin with".

My statement was aimed at trying to suggest that not all entities evoked can achieve cohesive physical form. The elemental building blocks are either too different to reproduce or are just not there to begin with.
Not all entities have physical form. Trying to force them to physical appearance is exhausting not to mention painful/uncomfortable for these beings. We can go a long way to create a suitable 'atmosphere'/stage for them but, in the end, they are better suited to astral form instead of physical. Certain 'demonic' entities reside in dimensions very close to ours and the transition between 'worlds' is not without consideration. The Triangle can prove to be very useful in this regard. But not only dealing with entities. I've had apportations occuring within the Triangle (and also without a Triangle). Gaining a signature from an entity can be grouped into this.

In fact, I felt the presence much more limited. I know that's a "good" thing in most cases, but I prefer the feeling that the spirit I'm working with is actually in the room with me. If I don't use the triangle, I know the spirit is all around me because of it's smothering effect it has on me and the circle. When I use it, it's just not very personal at all.

By constraining the spirit/entity into the Triangle you are forcing it to communicate with you in a very confined space. It remains external to you. By not using the Triangle the entity is far more pervasive...not unless it is fed large amounts of astral substance will it be able to physically manifest (even then it will require a 'helping' hand). The use of the Triangle allows for a controlled space. You are in charge of this space.

Or some consistant platonic "pre-form" potentiality?

Forgive me but could you please explain what you mean,...I've lost you.

Uriel was rather straight forward about this. I'm sure they wouldn't tell me this if it was inimical to others (alright...a minor leap of faith) My operations with them will remain private for now. Suffice it to say that the use of the Triangle is intrinsic in Elemental Magic.
My opinion about Triangle use is that if it is to your liking then it can be a valuable tool. It can be used for communication, apportation, manifestation, aid to scrying, whatever. Using it in its projected form is one key to Elemental Magic. It is a tetrahedron in projected form.
Now, unless there are more inquiries to me, let's hear from you guys. Visible appearance or not, what are your thoughts?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)

Sorry bym . . . you've pretty much covered where you were going.

In the school of thought in which everything that "exists" starts as an ideal or "perfect" astral form, only to actualize in the material as a corrosponding physical form (or concept occuring in the physical reality, in the case of non-material phenomenon). . . this being basically similar to Plato's eido or forms.
I was only soliciting your underlying opinion of the nature of the "a corporeal form to manifest to begin with" . . . with such far-fetched ideas as, spirits / "non-corporeal" entities actually have a otherwise unactualized (or pre ) form that can occur when its (whatever) potentiality "period" is reached.
(ok, that ^^^ may not have said anything LOL)
but . . . all this isn't really adding anything to this thread . . . so, nm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm again, though, a little confused bym. Are you under the opinion that the visual presentation of a spirit in evocation (not scry'd) is the same thing as the spirit having manifested in a physical (whatever) form . . . that is, at that point has clearly physical/material characteristics (other then being viewed)?

In classic texts the Triangle represents manifestation acting upon a lens effect that reaches from the mental realm down through the astral and ends in the physical. It is a tool to help materialize effects from the mental and astral into the physical.

This sounds strikingly like another thread, where I suggested that the classical barbarous words around the triangle represented that same processes inclusively of three layer of manifestation, but instead of it being a conduit through them . . . it was a geometric sumation of those layers in-principle.
Prime-mind(spirit), Anaph-light(astral), Tetra-body(elemental) . . .
Not a simple monolithic tool, but that it was a formulaic equation . . .?
Though, I may be differentiating between the triangle (as a symbolic device) and the Triangle of Art (a specific symbolic device) . . . I cant really tell if this thread is.

I was using a triangle I made for myself for a whille and when I had to move it was to big to carry and stuff so I burnt it. now I just use the mirror. but I do think it helped me focus abit better and gave the mirror more of a magical property kind of like the barberous word and how they have power. and im planning on building another one. this time its gonna be alot better and the mirrors going to sit flat on the surface without any mirror holders and i wont to make the boarder were the names ae writen on seperate ply and put it on top of that. all in all there will be 3 layers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

This post has been edited by scryer: Jan 6 2007, 06:45 PM

It would be right to first consider that the Triangle of Art appears foremost in the Lemegeton and most of the occult manuals and modern practices follow that format when it is included as a Triangle of Art. I would like to share some of my thoughts on this traditional usage, and offer brief comparisons to the spin-off works and modern adaptations.

I should mention that this Triangle of Art is not a structure of any sort, it is inscribed on the ground itself. There is no upright easel, there is no mirror, there is no sigil of the spirit (which is worn as a pendant), it is simply a flat triangle three feet across with its base two feet out from the circle perimeter. If a triangle is not desired, the Goetia allows the option of sealing the spirits within brass jars, and in the illustration in Sloane 2731, the vessel is sealed with the Secret Seal and the words (in Hebrew) "Dead god, you are condemned to the darkness of the womb for the pleasure of the man of God."

The spirits in Goetia appear in their respective quarter regardless of where the triangle is placed. This can lead to problems, as the spirits appear in their quarters and not necessarily where you make the triangle. The spirit must enter the triangle (wholly or in part) in order to agree to perform any task you might request of it. As a general rule, if it is not at least partly within the triangle, it is not to be trusted to agree to do anything or to answer truthfully, and though it may in fact be faithful of its own accord otherwise, you simply cannot be certain without a binding within the Triangle of Art.

Gifts (such as are required for Paimon), be they bread and beer or human sacrifices, may be placed within the Triangle, though they can just as well be left anywhere outside the circle. Experience has shown it unwise to seat an unrestrained or unwilling person within the triangle, aside from such being ill-dignified perversion of the art.

I will place "blame" on two individuals for popularizing the substitution of self-hypnotic mirrors for actual magical evocations, they being "Poke" Runyon of the OTA, and "Modern Magick" author D.M. Kraig. The latter person may be forgiven on the grounds that he admits to giving merely an introduction, encourages experimentation and research, and that he has introduced thousands of people to important ideas on magical practice. But for Pokey, none of this can be said in earnest. His "order" claims authentic "Magick of Solomon," but he has modified nearly every single tool and procedure, even to the extent of worshiping Baal and Astarte who he is supposed to be putting under constraint. Why anyone would take him seriously is utterly beyond my grasp, but his patented-black-mirror-demon-scrying gimmick is wildly popular as is evident on these boards.

The chief error earned by the mirror doctrine is the assumption that evocation requires some form of phychological disturbance, a fixity of concentration, or even the vaguest hint of trance. None of these things are required: this is magic, not "smoke and mirrors."

There are many ways to call spirits, including the triangle method, and it is not my intention to discredit these methods. Mirror-scrying has a rich tradition, and I have seen some such mirrors more than 4000 years old. There are also plenty of traditional adaptations of the triangle, and in some the grimoires it is the magician who stands therein.

Greetings Imperial Arts!
That was a nice post! The Triangle has been a source of experimentation for me. The digging into the realms of Elemental Magic has given me a good start in utilizing this feature. I prefer using it in an 'extended' form in the astral in the shape of a tetrahedron. Further working with advice from spiritlike 'entities' has added to its usefulness in manifesting material objects and/or phenomena.
LOL! That itself can evoke a fairly absurd image! From Magician to Historian, Magic can be found most everywhere and Geometry still holds some surprises... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

PS The placing of scrying devices has been known to help facilitate the scrying results. Since you can scry using most anything then I find it to be another component that needs watching over...no pun intended. I don't use them. Interesting blurb about Mr. Runyon...I've never been introduced which means I guess that I should read his book. *sigh* it's only money...

This post has been edited by bym: Jan 6 2007, 11:02 PM

well from my point of view you use the mirror for astral evocations and the triangle on its own for physical manifestain. how alse are you going to see the spirit? I know some people may get upset. the peaple that must have a circle inscribed on the ground perfectly and read out the full 2 pages of evocation. but I think the mirror is a valuble tool that cant be overlooked.

ps. Imperial arts were did you get your ring. Ive been looking for somewere to get one for ages. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac11.gif)

by the way is this the correct way to make a sigil for mulkuth?
(IMG:http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p9/Daemon_Reign/mulkuthsigil.gif)

This post has been edited by scryer: Jan 7 2007, 02:32 AM

This is just a guess, but what if an object using more than 3 point facilitate a more real manifestation. the principles of sacred geometry.?

This is just a guess, but what if an object using more than 3 point facilitate a more real manifestation. the principles of sacred geometry.?

A Tetrahedron has 4 points. It is a solid triangle and therein lies the mystery. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/face08.gif)

Here are a few good ones.

(IMG:http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j152/hattorihanzo_photos/tota_stand_big.jpg)
(IMG:http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j152/hattorihanzo_photos/OTAtriangle.jpg)
(IMG:http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j152/hattorihanzo_photos/TRIANGLE777.jpg)

OMG !
So these things are built to be plugged into wall outlets !?!
Had no idea the TriangleOfArt required electricity !

Thanx so much for this !
Beautiful board too btw.

This post has been edited by Wezzard: Mar 30 2007, 06:13 PM

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/yikes.gif)

OH yah, hence the electrical feeling you get. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif) lol