Elemental Weapon Question, is the dagger air or fire? Options

According to Donald Michael Kraig, the dagger is the air weapon. According to Stephen Skinner and Francis King, it is the fire weapon. To quote the Skinner/King book, Techniques of High Magic...

The attributions of the Weapons to the Elements has for a long time labored under the ascriptions given by the Golden Dawn which associated them as follows:

Wand - Fire
Dagger - Air
Cup - Water
Pentacle - Earth

However, this incorporates a blind, and in fact if these attributions are considered in depth it will be seen that for some reason the two active weapons, the dagger and the wand, have been interchanged.

They go on to give the reasons. Mostly that metal is forged with fire, is of the red color under Mercury. I'll type it out if anyone is interested. But who is right? I'm leaning toward Skinner/King but what do I know? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fool.gif)

I have never ever understood how daggers can be associated with air. The only reasoning I ever read is that daggers are "sharp, like the mind", which sounds a bit like airy fairy new ageism to me. There's the basics you mentioned; daggers are forged in fire, they're born out of it, but the real reason for me is that fire is the element of the warrior archetype. I mean, if you're going to go into caricatures for just a second here, a fire mage is much more likely to be portrayed holding a dagger. An air mage would probably be seen holding a book or a staff. Through mythology in almost every culture you see fire gods with warrior or war god aspects. Daggers are all about strengthening that aspect of yourself.
My only possible argument for the reverse is that wands are associated with fire in tarot. Tarot is far from my area of expertise, but I wouldn't be surprised if those associations were based off the same golden dawn misnomers you mentioned. I'm open to hearing what others have to say, but I will back up the blade=fire argument till judgement. Hope I helped your confusion a little. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

According to Donald Michael Kraig, the dagger is the air weapon. According to Stephen Skinner and Francis King, it is the fire weapon. To quote the Skinner/King book, Techniques of High Magic...
They go on to give the reasons. Mostly that metal is forged with fire, is of the red color under Mercury. I'll type it out if anyone is interested. But who is right? I'm leaning toward Skinner/King but what do I know? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fool.gif)

Please do!!! what is Skinners logic behind the interchange, is that all?

My only possible argument for the reverse is that wands are associated with fire in tarot. Tarot is far from my area of expertise, but I wouldn't be surprised if those associations were based off the same golden dawn misnomers you mentioned. I'm open to hearing what others have to say, but I will back up the blade=fire argument till judgement. Hope I helped your confusion a little.

If you go bye Donald Michael Kraig, he gives a fairly well rounded few of possible origins in the tarot, though i believe towards the end of his statement he implyed The Modern tarot is heavily based on the Golden Dawns original symbolism so if you follow their structure then one could see the connection between why the golden dawn and the tarot symbolism of the elementals would be closely linked.

but i do see yore point in how the phyisical symbolism of the dagger being hot and red when formed, i could see how that would raise suspecision

This post has been edited by Lord_Vahn: Aug 30 2009, 11:30 PM

OK, here's the rest of it.

First of all, there is a footnote after "have been interchanged" from the OP...

* This does not mean that your weapons will not work if the above ascription is used: of course they will if they have been properly consecrated, but using them will be somewhat like trying to batter someone to death with a dagger or stab them with a staff. Hard work.

After that...

The weapons may be characterized as follows:

1. The Dagger (Fire) is a weapon made of iron or steel, forged under heat, sharp and incisive like flame. As it is a weapon, it is associated with Mars [my bad in OP] whose color is red, the color of fire. Additionally the Golden Dawn attribution of the Elemental Weapons to the Sephiroth incorporated the same blind, so that despite hitherto published ascriptions, the Dagger is in fact a Weapon of Tiphareth, symbolic of sacrifice and the death and resurrection themes associated with this Sphere.

2. The Wand (Air) like the Caduceus is part of the insignia of Mercury, the winged messenger of the gods. Mercury is traditionally associated with Air, and his patronage of travelers further confirms the attribution of the Staff or Wand to Air. The wand is the Weapon of Hod, Sephirah of Mercury and magic.

Some other thoughts: DMK doesn't mention the consecration of said Weapons (at least up to Lesson 3 where I'm at). Isn't that essential? And here is what he says about the Tarot decks...

The "correct" version of the Tarot (their own version) was considered to be an important secret of the Golden Dawn. Waite, who had taken solemn vows not to reveal the inner secrets of the Golden Dawn, kept his word. Many of his cards are designed with incorrect symbolism (compared to the Golden Dawn version) in order to fool the uninitiated.

No citation or reference is given for this. It's hard to believe the Waite/Smith deck is not all correct.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking Donald Michael Kraig. I have a lot of admiration for him and I'm enjoying his book tremendously. But I also have a lot of admiration for the Skinner/King book since it's what got me started on "the Path." And I plan on reading more Stephen Skinner books.

This post has been edited by horus: Aug 31 2009, 06:09 AM

Horus,
Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you i was looking up my own questions (conjuration) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angel.gif)
any way long story short i did'nt want you to feel like I had you type all that out for nothing i did read it...

anywhoozer, I believe the anser youre looking for can be found in Kraig's book Modern Magick pg 149-151.

Though I think Kraig's reasoning is slightly lacking substance (I don't say that often, his book is what started me) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

hope that helps... wish i could have dound something more like where the cerimonial mages came up with that symbolism... maybe some of the more learned members here could lend a hand...

Lord Vahn

I found those pages a few days ago (149-151) and they left me more confused than before. Kraig lists Techniques of High Magic (ToHM) several times in bibliographies so he must know what that book says about the correspondences of the wand and dagger. Then, when he comes to the point of 'splainin hisself, he cites Wicca. I don't think Skinner/King are Wiccans. Like you said, insubstantial. I've got nothing against Wiccans at all, BTW.

He does say "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear." Maybe I'm just not ready. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/Lighten.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/whistling.gif)

Ah, more will be revealed.

This post has been edited by horus: Sep 3 2009, 11:26 PM

My only possible argument for the reverse is that wands are associated with fire in tarot. Tarot is far from my area of expertise, but I wouldn't be surprised if those associations were based off the same golden dawn misnomers you mentioned. I'm open to hearing what others have to say, but I will back up the blade=fire argument till judgement. Hope I helped your confusion a little. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Could you tell me where you find that info? Is it related to the Qabbalah and Tarot? Thanks, and yes you helped my confusion a lot! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This post has been edited by horus: Sep 3 2009, 11:24 PM

Does kind of sound and feel right... when thinking of a wand you tend to imagine mental directory force, hence magick, think of a dagger and you think of aggression. the action behind it... Intresting.... That being said a wand is symbolic of a phallus and you can't get any more fire like than that for symbolism... still.... notice that the traditional GD air dagger is made to look more like a spear than a dagger furthering Tiphareth like associations what with Jesus being stabbed on the cross and all.

The connection to the QBL tarot makes sence also.

http://mishkan-ha-echad.blogspot.com/2008/...-reversals.html

Just as indecisive .lol.

I noticed a lot of Wiccans associate the dagger with fire. However everyone else deems it appropriate to air. I personally like the dagger for fire. So I guess one should choose what they want.

As is the case with most things magical, it depends upon how YOU feel towards it. I've wrestled with both versions for decades. I favor Wands for air...similar as they are to arrows and associated with conjuring "creatures of Air"... leaving the dagger to fire, forged in the Blacksmiths Fire which was necessary to smelt ANY metal. Also, wands were historically cut from trees that were associated with Air, like almond or hazel, or fruitwoods. Trees themselves more akin to Air...

This doesn't mean a heartache of dashing a tradition aside! Rather, use what you're most comfortable with! They both represent masculine current. And the Sword is related both to Fire but mostly to the Martial current. Well...my two cents worth! *grin* How come everyone is so rabid to find legitimancy from some older texts about attributes? Shame on the lot of you! Part of the wielding of the Elemental Weapons is to either MAKE them or fully meditate upon the object until it cements itself into your mind! Just because PTBarnum claims it is a dogboy doesn't make it so! Know it! Feel it! Understand it! It's your reality that you use to interact with others reality! YOU are the mage! Rant, rant, rant, rant, rant! *grin* OK, I'll go... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/horse.gif)