Dogmatism, Ceremonial Magic, And The Uninitiated Masses, Pearls before swine Options

Ave

If we look around at responses on this board, on any board, and indeed in the new contemporary texts being published, there are these qualifiers, things like "But you will learn later that they are only symbols" and "once you are further advanced, you will learn that this is actually only half true" etc. etc. This is irresponsibility. The newly initiated into magic latch onto such things as High Teachings, and they may well be, or may not be, but that is besides the point, they become Dogma instead of a possible Experience. Once it is learned, they don't think any more on the subject, as R.A.W. had put it, and when, in essence, it's these learning experiences and revelations that ARE the advancements on the path, how much harder is it for the student to find new experiences if they've all been told to him? And even worse, is that the new initiate fancying himself more advanced and psychically or spiritually talented, takes these and tries to put them into some kind of use, but without the experience, this ends up failing and magic done this way will be an exercise in futility. I will not say this is a recent problem, but it is in fact a much, much more common problem, in this new Occulture, where a home brew magician has read of some secret and then, as below, so above, tried to enact it, with no avail. As far as I can see, this is the main reason for the oaths of secrecy and silence in the mystical and magical orders, as this can seriously hamper the advancement of a new initiate. And as for the reason of dropping these "hints" to "secrets" is in most cases equivilent to name dropping in acting or fashion circles, for ego gratification, as those being told might then think of the person as being more advanced, more famous, more in the know, and thereby more popular and more authoritative. It is said to "cast not pearls before swine", and I posit that it is for the benefit of the swine, same as the first axiom of the kybalion is "The lips of wisdom are sealed save for the ear of understanding". In this minor posting on this forum, can I turn the gaze towards one's actions and their effects, as the ripple of every action continues from here to eternity.

Ad Scientiam

Weolcome to the information age.

You're not the first person to take this piscean-age attitude towards the occult. In fact in the course of my study I've encountered lots of folks who refused to unzip their lips a little bit since I wasn't part of their 'secret order.' Even having had the chance, I vehemently refuse to become involved such muck.

What you, and lots of other people, haven't taken into account is the Age of Aquarius, the changing of the times. The point at which all of this information, these 'high secrets' become common parlance, and what the real secrets are now are things that our foregoers wouldn't have believed in their hubris, and that most of the little children these days take for granted.

These new generations believe in truth, and it's true that there are qualifiers laid down, but that only means that now, as it is supposed to be, individuals are responsible for their own advancement - they are no longer manipulated by their elders into advancement by believing wholeheartedly in the lies they tell them to do them good. We have opened up the truth that tradition and symbol are only lenses to focus intention and along with this rise of individual paths and mythos, comes a breaking away from symbolism, bit by bit, as we are able to actually live in a higher realm of consciousness, from which magick will no longer be some hidden key or secret in an ancient book than only a few moldy old men are truly aware of, but a process of change and manifestation that is as easy as breathing.

I was given these 'high secrets of magick' when I was first starting out, and I managed to let them go easy enough without becoming attached to them as dogma, and so did plenty of other people. In this age, if you earnestly want to become a magician, to understand the subtle secrets of the universe, then they will simply open up to you on your path *poof* like magick. I've seen it happening time and time again, and while I wasn't there for it in this lifetime, I realize there was a time when that was not the case. Maybe it's true that the vibration of our system, our planet, is increasing. Maybe that's why it takes only a steadfast intent.

Whether there's ever an element of ego in it or not, from the initiate's point of view it is all simply information, and they must trust their own instincts to lead them towards their goal. That's the mode of the times, and it's what this forum is about.

peace

It is best to give directions to all,but give more time for those who prove themselves sincere in their seeking.
Most people are not sincere and waste your time so it is best just to point them in the right direction,and they are to continue on their own.
There is no danger in giving knowledge to "swines" because they will not be able to use it,or be too lazy to use it.If they manage to use it,they are not swines then since they actually do something.
I know this from experience,seekers than are not sincere dont do anything or do it sloppy,so there is no danger in giving them knowledge.
I always remember myself in my beginnings,and I know how hard is it to get knowledge.So I give it now to all who ask.They are all stars,some will shine in this life,some in the next one,some in many aeons but they are all stars.We dont have the right to deny them anything.It is up to them whether they will use it or not,or how will they use that knowledge.

Ave

I do not speak of holding back secrets because they are secrets, but that these revelations, when the aspirant actually Understands and Sees the laws of magic that are advancement on the path, and by revealing the secrets before they can use them, they take them for granted and won't understand how those laws cannot be enacted unless one Understands the lower laws, there by the loose a phase of initiation and are improperly initiated into a higher grade, and the results are disastrous. A good analogy maybe how even though this entire world is illusion, you still have to breathe to run your body, gravity still holds you down, to act diffently, like trying to act like there isn't such a thing as matter, is met with failure on all fronts and a chance of diasaster in the worst. And by revealing such "secrets" to the aspirants, aren't we fueling a mass of Fools Reversed, that are just ready to jump off the cliff because it is known how to fly by others. My views are not piscean, they are penultimately Aquarian, but one thing you will see if this continues (and indeed, are already seeing) is the indoctrination of magic, just how Christianity was once the most powerful Mystery Religion, so now will Magic fall under it's own demysticification, babies given the First Degree initiaion as baptisms are given now. It is spoken of everywhere the dangerous effects of advancing when you shouldn't be, and the penultimate example is premature attempts at Crossing the Abyss, the person's soul is shattered and thrown down into the Klifot, if revealing every secret is the trend, then expect a culture of broken magicians and Inepti, yea even now you see this. If spiritual degredation is the goal, then let us all continue unchecked, but even in the Age of Aires' magicians knew this responsibility and the action of understanding higher laws, indeed, the basis of all magic has come from this Age.

Ad Scientiam

This post has been edited by Lucian: Jan 29 2007, 06:01 PM

I'm afraid I have to agree with Ra Hoor Khuit on this one, not just because he agrees with me, but he makes another good point - one can't make use of those higher laws, as even you say, until they understand the lower ones. An earnest seeker will seek to understand it all.

I understood superficially many higher laws, and it's true that they didn't really do anything for me, when I was not ready for them experientially, because I was able to find them in books and intuit them by reading between the lines of sacred texts. They didn't lead me astray, or damage me, nothing happened to my soul, I got to the other side safely. I wasn't able to utilize or truly grasp such concepts as what the Higher Consciousness really is, how my intentions ultimately affect my behavior, and how magick manifests itself through my own subconscious actions, until I grasped what part of my mind was Consciousness, which part was Unconsciousness - until I understood the play that each of the elemental archetypes worked in my body.

If anything, discovering the truth of what you call lower laws, experientially over time, ultimately has resulted in occaisional cascade effects of understanding in which a critical piece falls into place and allows me to suddenly grasp a larger part of the proverbial puzzle that was previously incomplete and thus unusable.

What you see again and again with seekers is that either their intention is firm, or it is not. If it is firm, then they progress and collect knowledge, anecdotes, and a multitude of teachers - all of whom, at least here, I should mention, regularly suggest a place to begin for all newcomers - and over time if they keep that intention, they grow naturally. They cannot even help it, really. The universe brings those lessons step by step for each individual. This is because the mass consciousness is closer to the universal consciousness in this age. Ever closer, as it has slowly been moving for the past several thousand years.

I say that your opinion here is piscean because of the emphasis on the need for a proper procedure for people, for the need to carefully guide each person step by step. Who is responsible for that guidance? The Aquarian agenda is personal responsibility for personal growth, personal responsibility to advance the human race or the earth consciousness in some way. In this age, the Universe itself is the teacher, or rather, that truth is finally revealed.

Around here, people already having taken several steps down their path ask intermediate to advanced questions. Newcomers will inevitably read those things, but we are quite responsible to have dozens of threads and an entire board dedicated to novices and guiding them on how to start. As long as the initiate begins correctly, as long as he is pointed at the foundational principles, the rest of those principles will unfold over time as soon as he starts. sometimes I have seen people coming back to their path again and again when they have left it out of a lack of faith or heart before, but something keeps bringing them back! It is the universe itself, teaching them a lesson and the letting them take the time to grasp it. After the first lesson is grasped, it's just a matter of time.

Even negative experiences caused by incomplete knowledge and the application of advanced techniques that the individual cannot handle properly, are learning experiences. People who are posessed come out of it with stronger faith. People who lose their minds, come back with a clearer understanding of exactly what sanity is and what it means. People who fall into the abyss come back with a firm knowledge of what is really Light and Darkness. Those pitfalls are the heightened stakes of the times, and the more people who pass the tests and come out stronger - and those numbers grow daily - the more people will be able to. We need that stumbling around, we need that age of chaotic reasoning and experimentation, because out of those ashes rises a new paradigm suited to a new consciousness.

Birth, death, and rebirth, on a global scale. Old spirituality is dying, so is old magick, and it is being replaced by new ideals, new beliefs, new traditions and dogmas that will serve better for a time and then, when the new secrets are finally made available to anyone who cares to ask those questions, even more advanced secrets will come to light to a select few, and those will be the new level everyone aspires to.

There are plenty of secrets to be learned, either from the people who hide them, or from the universe which has them carefully hidden behind all the veils of consciousness and understanding. The principles discussed here are common parlance now, not the 'high lore' that you seem to think they are. The new secrets of the aeon exist on a level beyond the communication we are capable of now, and that is why they are the new secret doctrines. Because you have to get past all of these old secrets, in effect learning what men and women ages past have had learn through careful initiation and guidance from teachers, in order to open up to that next level of awareness. And at that point, there are teachers waiting, experiences which will, step by step, unfold an even greater scheme.

And you can bet you bottom dollar that there are an infinite number of levels above that, all waiting to be discovered by our descendants.

Fact of the matter is, most of the 'arcane secrets' that so many occultists still think are heavy stuff, are no longer that impressive or amazing. Young people take them for granted because they've been around so long they are intrinsic. Where before people had to work to advance themselves spiritually enough to grasp these deeper truths of existence and consciousness, these days people are born advanced enough to get it perfectly the first time they hear it. After that it's just a matter of putting peices together, and they do so with a grace as yet unseen but by a rare few. I have talked to more spiritually advanced people in my life under the age of 18 than I have over the age of fifty. And I've looked.

That's what I mean by 'the age is changing.' What used to be pearls are now more like shiny rocks. The real pearls are not so common place as you think, even though they are heartachingly simple when you find them. No one casts them before swine, because even when they do, the swine have no idea anything's been cast before them.

peace

Ave

Your post above is exactly what I am speaking of as the problem. Where you say that people come through the Abyss with an appreciation for what light and dark is is simply rubbish. What about those that don't? What about all of those souls who are cast down and shattered, gone mad, even died, and a death like this is nearly extermination of the soul. And just because one does not understand something does not mean they can't use it, kids fire guns everyday, ignorant people drive cars without a thought, we use magick without understanding exaclty how or why it works (theories aside), and magicians everyday venture forth prematurely only to meet demise, or to be led by an illusion, to propigate such illusions and say "you can do it too like this" , leading more to the pit. You post exactly what I was speaking of, the idea that the old secrets are "no longer that impressive or amazing" that is the injury that Dogma has caused, for they are Truly Amazing, each and every law and principle, and when one understands that, they KNOW just how amazing they are, but by simply having them around, as "oh yeah, that's how things are, I'll move on" may seem like progress, but it is just change. How can you understand the more complicated without understanding it's foundation? I do not speak of keeping everyone in check, just that it would be for the benefit of the Great Work overall that one does not simply use Dogma, or spread it's use throughout. The New Aeon is about the raising up of the soul, and in every age this has been through speaking in Parables, Riddles, Koans, not in simply telling people how things are, that's exactly what the church does! To avoid betraying my own agenda, I could speak forth a specific dogma and you would then, by knowing it, be done with all spirituality, that's it, ultimate secret is known, done, right? How would you react to such an event transpiring? What is advancement then? Simply knowing about a law? While I see that you speak of a romantic ideal of the New Age philosophy killing the Old (and even the confusion of the New Age with what seems to be the New Aeon) being that even by the most liberal formulas, the Age of Aquarius is still another 150 years away, and secondly, that globalization and decentralization and mass communication of the old secrets is the same effect as our own exoteric society: mass media, and fast food, and quick fixes, and drive thru religion (and now Magic), it is killing the individual and society by result, this is the averse forces of the New Aeon, not it's pure force. I apologize but I like to think that a community of adepts is far more important than a society of broken minds and failed souls to produce one adept, because if a soul fails, it puts back the Great Work, it is destruction and no creation in its place, and that is the Anti-thesis of the Aeon of Horus. But one would also expect the ideas of morals to be lost, and the "innocence" of the "crowned and conquering child" is now simply "I don't know better, I can do what I want!" and expect progress, and results and it may as well be that you interpret 'Do what thou Will' as 'do what you want'. Any true follower of Will will tell you this isn't so. So as the community says:"let's tell them everything, this age is about doing what I want and what they want too", it shows forth incomplete understanding and, again, misapplication of principles, and I speak in generalities to the whole of the occult community.

Edit: I forgot to adress the fact that "Pearls" have a signifigance in symbolism and a place in eternity, regardless of an Age. Once again, the "Lips of Wisdom are sealed except to the ears of understanding". I wish it was easy as people want it to be, but it isn't. People need to learn what they are doing, or adverse effects will happen, to say this isn't so because of a Father god in the form of the HGA or universal spirit is nothing more than Christianity, but even there, you can still be attacked by the denizens of hell. The word of this Aeon is Self- Responsiblity, for your actions and their effects.

Ad Scientiam

This post has been edited by Lucian: Jan 30 2007, 02:34 AM

Edit: I forgot to adress the fact that "Pearls" have a signifigance in symbolism and a place in eternity, regardless of an Age. Once again, the "Lips of Wisdom are sealed except to the ears of understanding". I wish it was easy as people want it to be, but it isn't. People need to learn what they are doing, or adverse effects will happen, to say this isn't so because of a Father god in the form of the HGA or universal spirit is nothing more than Christianity, but even there, you can still be attacked by the denizens of hell. The word of this Aeon is Self- Responsiblity, for your actions and their effects.

Universe is far more complex than any system of categorization we can think of.Denizens of hell are part of the universe too so are the ill experiences.
One must have them in order to experience all aspects of the universe.Macrocosmically they are denizens of hell but microcosmically they have counterparts in our subconsciousness.
Subconscious complexes related to our animalistic and dark self,the animal within us.If not examined and slowly dissolved,it will come around one day and that is very unpleasant to say the least.
I dont discard any thing in the universe,I am the microcosmos and contain everything that is in the macrocosmos,therefore by discarding denizens of hell I would discard something that reflects things
in my subconsciousness.They too are the part of the macrocosmos,just like gods,angels or whatever.Knowing yourself you will know the universe.
Pure folly is key to initiation as Master Therion said.He did not mean literal folly but folly like in the tarot card the Fool,spiritual impulse from our true Self which is always right if received and interpreted properly.
To receive such impulses correctly one must be a "fool" meaning to bypass the rational mind and listen to your intuition and your true Self.
And things rapidly change as Vagrant Dreamer mentioned,things that were occult secrets 200 years or 50 years ago are public knowledge today.
Did that produce having neighbourhood full of Crowleys,Bardons and Spares? Of course not.Like I said before knowledge is useless without actually using it practically.
You say that people must learn what they are doing,rights of man from Liber Oz give them the right to do what they will with themselves.You can just give them direction,anything else would be forcing your
will on theirs.What they do with themselves is entirely their responsibility.Whether they will conjure demons and be eaten by them is irrelevant.It is their will to do so.I can warn against it but cannot force
my will upon theirs.Moreover I must respect their choice,regardless whether they take my advice on something or they dont."Mistakes" are part of evolution too.Without them people would never learn their lessons.

This post has been edited by Ra Hoor Khuit: Jan 30 2007, 05:16 AM

Ave

The views you express seem to point to there being nothing that can hinder anyone, and I'm not speaking of a belief structure, but actions taken in a belief structure, and in this view, some one who watches football is advancing just as much as you are, there is not a difference, as every action is progress. And above I spoke not of discarding anything, but even more, the work with those "denizens of hell" that can indeed be harmful to a person if they are not ready. And even more illustrious of my point is this Dogma of everything being good and every action, even "negative" ones are for the "best", how did you recieve this revelation? How do you interpret such a thing, all of it's rammifications, of this, the Highest Law of the Aeon? Surely you know, having Understood it as the Ipsissimus you must be, to see beyond all actions and being. This is the hinderance that I'm speaking of, the Dogmatism that is rotting the magical community. Do not quote verses at me from the Book of the Law or what have you and further illustrate my point.

"You can just give them direction,anything else would be forcing your
will on theirs.What they do with themselves is entirely their responsibility.Whether they will conjure demons and be eaten by them is irrelevant.It is their will to do so.I can warn against it but cannot force
my will upon theirs"

I am speaking of direction, not of any kind of guiding, I only speak that some may see that their actions do indeed have negative consequences, not only upon themselves, but others as well. I am speaking ESPECIALLY of warning them, as you said above. To say otherwise is fluff, and to evoke the idea of "the assumption of the universe back to the All" as reason for inaction, tantamount Magickal Nihilism (considering of course you are not Magi of Chockmah, as this is a high law) why do anything at all? These are questions that the occult community is avoiding, and hold double starndards for both.

"

Pure folly is key to initiation as Master Therion said.He did not mean literal folly but folly like in the tarot card the Fool,spiritual impulse from our true Self which is always right if received and interpreted properly.
To receive such impulses correctly one must be a "fool" meaning to bypass the rational mind and listen to your intuition and your true Self."

I am saying exactly this. Stop spreading foolishness, which is folly for folly's sake without guidance from the Higher Self, the inverse of the Divine Fool, who thinks imself God and no other. Samael they are all. That's all I am trying to express.

Ad Scientiam

This post has been edited by Lucian: Jan 30 2007, 05:21 PM

Ave

Your post above is exactly what I am speaking of as the problem. Where you say that people come through the Abyss with an appreciation for what light and dark is is simply rubbish. What about those that don't?

What about those that don't? Do you think that natural selection ends when we leave the jungles and deserts and start building cities and 'culture'? It doesn't. There are billions of people here, far too many - amongst those, many many more will advance and ascend than have been able to in ages past, sheerly by the weight of numbers. You think this population boom doesn't serve a purpose?

What about all of those souls who are cast down and shattered, gone mad, even died, and a death like this is nearly extermination of the soul.

There is no such thing as extermination of the soul. The soul is a facet of an eternal and immutable purpose, a divine consciousness that goes far beyond your individual spiritual path. Nothing you could do would permanently damage that absolute.

And just because one does not understand something does not mean they can't use it, kids fire guns everyday, ignorant people drive cars without a thought, we use magick without understanding exaclty how or why it works (theories aside), and magicians everyday venture forth prematurely only to meet demise, or to be led by an illusion, to propigate such illusions and say "you can do it too like this" , leading more to the pit. You post exactly what I was speaking of, the idea that the old secrets are "no longer that impressive or amazing" that is the injury that Dogma has caused, for they are Truly Amazing, each and every law and principle, and when one understands that, they KNOW just how amazing they are, but by simply having them around, as "oh yeah, that's how things are, I'll move on" may seem like progress, but it is just change. How can you understand the more complicated without understanding it's foundation?

I'll concede to this point. Every act of thinking, every intention one has, every expectation you have, is an element of magick. One of those profound secrets is just how intimately connected to reality we really are. Over time, you come to really understand and grasp those laws of interaction, and you are able to see clearly that everyone posesses magick - everyone uses it constantly. Some people seek to be aware of it, just as some seek to be aware of everything they say, what they think, or to be aware of their body language. And because of that, it's true, lots of people meet an untimely and unfortunate demise.

It is the ego of the initiate magician which leads him to believe that his craft sets him above the rest of human kind, that his destiny is more grand, that he is any farther from 'the pit'. It is that same ego which leads him to believe that the sacred laws he is beginning to understand are so powerful and beyond the scope of the inexperienced mind, that they must be kept secret and doled out in a specific order, or risk delivering harm upon the unwary. Mystical law only allows us to be aware of an appreciate the reality we are a part of, they do not enable one to be any more capable than they were before, only to be more mindful of that capability. Everyone is just as gifted as you are, you've just decided to pay more attention to those gifts and understand how they work.

As far as the amazingness of those occult principles you so vaguely reference - there comes a point when you accept that the world is as it is, that reality is as it is, and at that point one is neither bored with it, nor amazed by it. There is no opinion, nothing but simple appreciation and acceptance that it all is what it is. It is at that point, transcending these 'basics' that those higher principles begin to unfold before you. As long as you are dazzled by these lower principles, the higher ones will remain obscured.

I do not speak of keeping everyone in check, just that it would be for the benefit of the Great Work overall that one does not simply use Dogma, or spread it's use throughout. The New Aeon is about the raising up of the soul, and in every age this has been through speaking in Parables, Riddles, Koans, not in simply telling people how things are, that's exactly what the church does! To avoid betraying my own agenda, I could speak forth a specific dogma and you would then, by knowing it, be done with all spirituality, that's it, ultimate secret is known, done, right? How would you react to such an event transpiring? What is advancement then? Simply knowing about a law?

I daresay my dedication to my spirituality is a bit more sturdy than that. You keep talking about spreading dogma - dogma implies a strict adherence to specific unalterable principles 'proven' by others and thus accepted as truth. What is happening in this age, in this place, is the exact opposite. People are discovering the same principles in different ways, they are coming up with new forumlas, this is what I have been saying all this time. There is no dogma anymore. No one takes what they read as absolute, they aren't capable of it anymore. And along with every expression of the mechanics of reality and your interaction with it comes the popular new saying, in so many words, "But, ultimately it's your own experience that counts." I can tell you, "You're consciousness is really just an extension of divine consciousness, and when you die, you'll realize your true being as the One Divine Mind." Maybe that's true, maybe it isn't, does hearing it finish your spiritual path for you? I know it's true, I've exprerienced it in flashes of enlightenment for years now, in moments of ecstacy and elation - but does that mean i'm done? No, of course not, it means i have more work to do! Does my experience make it true for you? No, of course not! You still have to go do the work. Can you use or apply that new understanding? No, because it's just words, something to think about. Maybe it will take root like a seed and grow into true enlightenment, but right here and now, just like every other divine law, it's useless until you've had it long enough to see it manifest in the world.

While I see that you speak of a romantic ideal of the New Age philosophy killing the Old (and even the confusion of the New Age with what seems to be the New Aeon) being that even by the most liberal formulas, the Age of Aquarius is still another 150 years away, and secondly, that globalization and decentralization and mass communication of the old secrets is the same effect as our own exoteric society: mass media, and fast food, and quick fixes, and drive thru religion (and now Magic), it is killing the individual and society by result, this is the averse forces of the New Aeon, not it's pure force. I apologize but I like to think that a community of adepts is far more important than a society of broken minds and failed souls to produce one adept, because if a soul fails, it puts back the Great Work, it is destruction and no creation in its place, and that is the Anti-thesis of the Aeon of Horus. But one would also expect the ideas of morals to be lost, and the "innocence" of the "crowned and conquering child" is now simply "I don't know better, I can do what I want!" and expect progress, and results and it may as well be that you interpret 'Do what thou Will' as 'do what you want'. Any true follower of Will will tell you this isn't so. So as the community says:"let's tell them everything, this age is about doing what I want and what they want too", it shows forth incomplete understanding and, again, misapplication of principles, and I speak in generalities to the whole of the occult community.

The point at which we make the change into the age of aquarius is expected by most lines of thought to be an apex, a climax or crescendo. We are moving slowly into it, and it's effects are already manifesting as a sort of 'cusp'. It's obvious just by looking around.

(take off mod mantle) I don't want this to reflect the general attitude of mod staff, so this is my own personal observation here, but what i'm seeing here is a similar attitude to what I felt when I was a little less experienced, a little younger, and had met fewer enlightened minds. Humanity is not an infant species anymore, stumbling blindly through existence. No matter what you do in life, you are working out karma. No matter what anyone does, they are working out karma. In the end, you may not be ascended, but you will be further along the great work than you were when you started. Evolution is an immutable force of nature in the universe, and everything we think, say, do, believe, of ask for, is totally in furtherance of that divine mandate. We may seem to see motion moving backwards, de-evolution, but that is from within the ego, cut off from the greater picture, without the ability to see as God sees. The majority of a species will always be on the decline - it is the minority amongst millions - billions in this case, as I mentioned before - who will have the qualities which are best for evolution. As long as there are a handful amongst those billions, we are making progress just fine.

There is no way to maintain mystery sects amongst a population this huge. Do you think it would be more appropriate for a stable number of a few thousand amongst billions be be properly initiated, the rest carefully kept from the most 'important' doctrines and secrets so that they won't hurt themselves? That is rubbish. We are not above natural selection, and that's just the way it is. We think we've transcended the laws of nature, that we are beyond the basic primal laws that govern all life on this earth, but we aren't - those basic tenets apply to our seemingly advanced knowledge and culture in every facet, including the occult. Yes, some people will fail. They will recieve more compassion from the universe that even those who do not fail, because they will be in need of it. The rest, will return to incite even more advancement. It is a system built to move forward, and believing that your - no offense - ultimately insignificant path will adversely affect the entire world, is ego centered and false. The system is bigger and smarter that you, or I, or the entire human race. If this wasn't the way it was supposed to be, it wouldn't be this way.

Edit: I forgot to adress the fact that "Pearls" have a signifigance in symbolism and a place in eternity, regardless of an Age. Once again, the "Lips of Wisdom are sealed except to the ears of understanding". I wish it was easy as people want it to be, but it isn't. People need to learn what they are doing, or adverse effects will happen, to say this isn't so because of a Father god in the form of the HGA or universal spirit is nothing more than Christianity, but even there, you can still be attacked by the denizens of hell. The word of this Aeon is Self- Responsiblity, for your actions and their effects.

Certainly, but that process, across the entire human race, requires that the handful of people here and there get it while the others struggle and fail. Because knowledge is available to all, we all have the self-responsibility to learn, experience, and grow with it in accordance. It gets down to population. And it's people with views like yours that overcomplicate the process. If we were all willing to be open minded and compassionate, and to pass on our knowledge and help one another, the process would be even easier. It is as easy as people think, but people get hung up on egotism and the belief that they have discovered some kind of world shaking wisdom that no one else could possibly handle - that is why it becomes difficult. If you let go and follow the instinct in your spirit, then it will lead you step by step through each stage of advancement, unfolding all principles in their turn, in the perfect order.

I agree with the tone of responsibility to evince. People do need to be mindful of what they are doing, but it isn't just limited to occult secrets. Occult secrets are not that impressive if you're the type of person who pays attention to your interaction with reality. They only became impressive after people had started living a life that was ignorant of that interaction, living thoughtlessly. Being impressed by them at all gets in the way of growing further. If they become common parlance, then eventually, not at first, not right now, but eventually, they re-enter our culture, and we all begin living mindfully. But that requires that they be available to all, anytime, no matter what stage of advancement you are at. The costs now, are far outweighed by the benefits in the centuries to come.

peace

Ave

I will follow suit in the recent format, and address parts of your statements.

There is no such thing as extermination of the soul. The soul is a facet of an eternal and immutable purpose, a divine consciousness that goes far beyond your individual spiritual path. Nothing you could do would permanently damage that absolute.

I never said that it was possible to destory or even permanently destroy the soul, but it can be shattered, thrown down into lower states of existance, like the physical realm, etc.

You keep talking about spreading dogma - dogma implies a strict adherence to specific unalterable principles 'proven' by others and thus accepted as truth. What is happening in this age, in this place, is the exact opposite. People are discovering the same principles in different ways, they are coming up with new forumlas, this is what I have been saying all this time. There is no dogma anymore. No one takes what they read as absolute, they aren't capable of it anymore.

This is the Dogma that I speak of, that there is no more dogma is to be strictly adhered to and repeated throughout, this is Dogma. Just how you can't say "never speak in absolutes" as that is an absolute statement. Just because something conveys a message that seems to be atagonistic to a certain view point, does not mean that it actually does. There is Dogma, and it's the Dogma of "no dogma" which simply can't be.

And along with every expression of the mechanics of reality and your interaction with it comes the popular new saying, in so many words, "But, ultimately it's your own experience that counts." I can tell you, "You're consciousness is really just an extension of divine consciousness, and when you die, you'll realize your true being as the One Divine Mind." Maybe that's true, maybe it isn't, does hearing it finish your spiritual path for you? I know it's true, I've exprerienced it in flashes of enlightenment for years now, in moments of ecstacy and elation - but does that mean i'm done? No, of course not, it means i have more work to do!

First of all, you learned that maxim, and you attempt to enact it's truth, of which there is only benefits, and this is the "flashes of enlightenment for years now". Had you learned that to pick fights with demons was just as important, you would somehow try to enact that, which has innumerable drawbacks. And you speak of work? Work towards what? If your statement of "ever act and every intention is an element of magick" is to be assumed, you have no work, you are doing it all by existing. But you know that this isn't true

Does my experience make it true for you? No, of course not! You still have to go do the work. Can you use or apply that new understanding? No, because it's just words, something to think about. Maybe it will take root like a seed and grow into true enlightenment, but right here and now, just like every other divine law, it's useless until you've had it long enough to see it manifest in the world.

What work do you have? Your statements speak forth that we can't fail, there is no work to be done according to your dogma! But there is work and you know that innately, you can become better and you can become worse. Gravity is not real, it is an illusion, work to overcome it. Some would take those words and do and throw themselves down cliffs to their own demise. Some take the time and do the work and jump off into the sky, and teach others to do the same.

I don't want this to reflect the general attitude of mod staff, so this is my own personal observation here, but what i'm seeing here is a similar attitude to what I felt when I was a little less experienced, a little younger, and had met fewer enlightened minds. Humanity is not an infant species anymore, stumbling blindly through existence. No matter what you do in life, you are working out karma. No matter what anyone does, they are working out karma. In the end, you may not be ascended, but you will be further along the great work than you were when you started.

Now, please, do not attempt to pigeon-hole my perspective and my debate, to condescend as such is simply closing your mind and your eyes. Secondly, with this "all is benefit", working out karma, why is there karma in the first place? there is no such thing as negative karma? To assume that everything everyone does is going to further the Great Work is naive and missing the very core of Mankind, that of choice. One can choose to not go along with the Great Work, one can choose to further it, one can also choose to be ignorant of it and stagnate. Ultimately, things may not end up as you think they will, by ignoring that mankind has free will, you are no longer talking about mankind.

Let me bring mulitple points together to hopefully illustrate better: if the soul of every man is ulitmately eternal, and if most of these souls fail at enacting the Great Work, or fail at progressing the evolution, then what happens to those souls? Reincarnation even, if souls failed before, and fail again, and continue to fail by choice of ignorance or choice of hubris, time after time, as is what is happening, then, indeed Evolution is halted, the Great Work is slowed, and there will be no progress. "Let them die, let them fail, it was their choice" is not one who is interested in the Great Work and progress, but in personal benefit, or benefit of the few, which the Great Work is not. More numbers makes failing all that easier, not succeeding more evident. And, indeed, we can fail, the Great Work can fail.

Ad Scientiam

This post has been edited by Lucian: Jan 30 2007, 10:32 PM

It's a popular format in the forums, just because it's easier to see exactly what is being referenced and responded to. Sooo much confusion has been avoided this way, so it's become commonplace.

I never said that it was possible to destory or even permanently destroy the soul, but it can be shattered, thrown down into lower states of existance, like the physical realm, etc.
This is the Dogma that I speak of, that there is no more dogma is to be strictly adhered to and repeated throughout, this is Dogma. Just how you can't say "never speak in absolutes" as that is an absolute statement. Just because something conveys a message that seems to be atagonistic to a certain view point, does not mean that it actually does. There is Dogma, and it's the Dogma of "no dogma" which simply can't be.

Highlighting something like, 'the dogma of no dogma' is circular logic. There are multiple traditions and schools of thought, and they all have their paradigms of dogma. By and large, people are beginning to spread out their study and practice over many schools, in effect cancelling the dogma they have learned and replacing it with direct experience over time. There is no such thing as a 'dogma of no dogma.' That's like saying that chaos magick is a tradition of strict adherence to nothing. It's not strict adherence if there's nothing to adhere to. Taking that point of view is creating a dogma on purpose which defies the meaning of dogma, just to say that it's really dogma.

First of all, you learned that maxim, and you attempt to enact it's truth, of which there is only benefits, and this is the "flashes of enlightenment for years now". Had you learned that to pick fights with demons was just as important, you would somehow try to enact that, which has innumerable drawbacks. And you speak of work? Work towards what? If your statement of "ever act and every intention is an element of magick" is to be assumed, you have no work, you are doing it all by existing. But you know that this isn't true

On the contrary, I was brought up to believe in a unique individual soul. Through the course of my journey i've learned lots of different theories on what a soul might be, and through my own work, meditation, dreaming, questioning, and testing the limits of my consciousness, I came to the conclusion that of all the maxims of the soul and consciousness that I had come across, that one most reflected what I could observe and sense within myself and in the world around me - how my actions are reflected in and by others, how my questions are answered simultaneously by an inner and outer voice of consciousness. Its like i've been saying, those 'secret doctrines' are easily accessible, it is up to the individual to take those points of view under advisement, and then observe and test their existence to verify what is true for them and what is not.

I am doing work by existing. I have come to understand that the consciousness that I have developed is only a slim fragment of my total being, and that beyond the immediate ego sphere of this 'waking mind' is a greater mind (commonly referred to as the higher self, HGA, and innumerable other labels) which has an agenda that until the past couple of years was not necessarily what I percieved my own purpose to be. The first part of my work has been to understand what that agenda is, and align my 'own' purpose with it. Work towards what? Ostensibly ascension, enlightenment, wholeness, a host of other such limiting labels that don't fully convey the deeper meaning of what that all means to me personally and what it means for the actions I take in this incarnation.

I am not unique in that - everyone is an extension of some higher consciousness, whether they hail from the same sphere or not - and everyone is capable of understanding, through some method, what the intention of their higher self is, and then acting on that higher intention. THAT is the work we do by existing. Every event in life is a lesson, a pointer, a signpost, from that higher perspective, trying to remind us of why we're here. It is the working out of karma that in many cases gets in the way of the communication, or more specifically, the suffering that often accompanies that process.

And even then, not everyone agrees with that. Is it my own Dogma? It is not a set of mandates that I follow to the letter for no other reason than that they have been told to me, or I have read them. I have done the work of finding out, of asking questions and seeking answers. When the process has been revealed to you through experience, it is no longer dogma, it is the Path.

What work do you have? Your statements speak forth that we can't fail, there is no work to be done according to your dogma! But there is work and you know that innately, you can become better and you can become worse. Gravity is not real, it is an illusion, work to overcome it. Some would take those words and do and throw themselves down cliffs to their own demise. Some take the time and do the work and jump off into the sky, and teach others to do the same.

Are you familiar with the symbolism of the alchemical process of producing the philosopher's stone? The idea that the impurity of the metals must be removed, leaving only the purified elements which are then brought together into a higher form of material? On the grand scale, that, in my opinion, quantifies the Great work. It is altruistic and compassionate to believe that every individual human soul needs to be enlightened in order to complete the great work, but what of the impurities? What of the metal that must again and again be broken down, cast into the fire to burn away the rubbish and leave behind only the indestructible pure element? Souls perhaps can be broken, perhaps they can be cast down, but that process ultimately serves the ends of the Divine. Seperating the pure from the impure.

Now, please, do not attempt to pigeon-hole my perspective and my debate, to condescend as such is simply closing your mind and your eyes. Secondly, with this "all is benefit", working out karma, why is there karma in the first place? there is no such thing as negative karma? To assume that everything everyone does is going to further the Great Work is naive and missing the very core of Mankind, that of choice. One can choose to not go along with the Great Work, one can choose to further it, one can also choose to be ignorant of it and stagnate. Ultimately, things may not end up as you think they will, by ignoring that mankind has free will, you are no longer talking about mankind.

Your arguments remind me of a philosophy I previously had adopted, in a time when I was desperately seeking a teacher and ignoring the revelations that were pouring in my window because I didn't believe I was capable of instructing myself, of learning these mystical insights properly, without someone to guide me step by step. I believed I needed proper initiation. Then I learned that the universe is the Great Teacher, that the Guru is not A GURU, but THE GURU principle, which is accessible to all who care to open themselves to it. Perhaps that philosophy will work out for you in the end, perhaps it is working now, but I and many, many others who are advancing just fine on their own, chose to discard it as a limiting dogma which no longer had any place in modern spirituality. If it comes off as condescending, then my apologies are in order for a lack of attention to the words I used to express that view.

Working out karma is the core element of the great work. It is litterally the process of excising the impurities from the spiritual principle in one's life. Yes, you can fail individually. But, each time, you learn a little better. Each time, you have more experience. Each time, you inherently are able to work out more of it. It is the mandate of the higher consciousness, the Divine if you will, which commands that we do this work, and so we cannot help but do it. It is like a computer - it is built to do these things, to compute numbers, to assemble electricity into images and sounds. That is why it was created, and that is what it does, because it cannot do anything else. Everyone has karma, those issues WILL without a doubt, arise in a person's life, and they WILL be affected by them. If that's dogma, then so be it. Our understanding of the nature of that process is what advances, that is what evolves into new philosophy. Everything we learn, every action we take, mundane or magickal, is towards the end of completing the work. This is what I mean when I say that we cannot fail. Eternity does not need try and be patient, and it is not on a clock.

I agree, at least I think you agree, that by taking other individuals into our care and helping them to understand each principle of their existence step by step, the work can perhaps be furthered purposefully. However, there are 30 billion+ individuals on earth. No matter how many students you take, you will always be working with the minority. Not everyone who tends their own portion of the work is intended to be a teacher of the masses. First and foremost one must tend their OWN karma, and only when they have achieved purity, SHOULD they start helping others to work out their karma, help them do their portion of the great work. Are you such a person? If so, I have plenty of work, you are welcomed to help me do it.

As regards free will, i'm not gonna touch that with a ten foot pole. One can argue for or against it litterally until every view has been trotted out and put on display as a badge of learned wisdom. In the end, my own belief is that the Divine is the only holder of free will, and that as extensions of the divine, we have that free will to act in accordance with a higher level of free will. That's all I'll say about that, take it as you will.

Let me bring mulitple points together to hopefully illustrate better: if the soul of every man is ulitmately eternal, and if most of these souls fail at enacting the Great Work, or fail at progressing the evolution, then what happens to those souls? Reincarnation even, if souls failed before, and fail again, and continue to fail by choice of ignorance or choice of hubris, time after time, as is what is happening, then, indeed Evolution is halted, the Great Work is slowed, and there will be no progress. "Let them die, let them fail, it was their choice" is not one who is interested in the Great Work and progress, but in personal benefit, or benefit of the few, which the Great Work is not. More numbers makes failing all that easier, not succeeding more evident. And, indeed, we can fail, the Great Work can fail.

This is what I mean by the individual responsibility to grasp these vague 'higher principles' that keep coming up. You're asking good questions, but your adhering strictly to a particular line of reasoning. Have you had experiential proof of this belief that the great work can fail? Have you observed a life over many incarnations, to know for certain that it can continue to fail each time? What factors have come to bear in your life to instigate your spiritual seeking? You may want to believe that it was totally your own free will, your choice to take up this work, but was it really? Was there no element of your life which inspired that path?

Let me illustrate my point, it's still going to be sort of vague, but that's what we get when we try and lock these things down into text. A man is born into his first life (metaphorically as I don't want to bother contending whether or not there is a first life or if we have karma in it) with a full load of karma to work out, in order to purify his 'portion' of spirit. His higher self, totally cut off from this extension of itself, can only set up the events around him that will trigger that karmic work. In this first life, he is a druggie bum, who steals and is selfish, and ultimately accrues more karma, working out perhaps less than he accrues. So he dies. What happens between is not of importance here, when he is reborn, he is born to parents who will teach him particular behaviors that will be more conducive. His higher self maneuvers people into his life who will also teach him good lessons. However, again in this life he falls a little short. he is still selfish because he takes his parents and friends for granted and ignores most of their lessons, but not all. So again, he dies. This time around, his new karma is taken into account, and he is put in a position where he must suffer greatly from the beginning. He doesn't work out all his karma, but in this life he comes to appreciate the value of compassion from others, even if he doesn't have that compassion himself. Again, he dies. Next time around... you see where this leads? Each time, he carries with him a little bit of the knowledge gained in the previous life. Each time, his higher self is able to act on that inherent spiritual instinct which has been building up, in order to expose him to new lessons.

This example does seem to imply a lack of free will, doesn't it? That we are all manipulated by a higher realm of consciousness? That we are looked after, offered lessons, and maneuvered into the path of teachers, guides, and experiences which further our path?

Lets jump forward say, 100,000,000 years. Surprise, time is still passing, the material universe is still spinning, and life still continues. Humans, however, well, they self-destructed, unable to handle 'free will.' However, all that consciousness that was locked up in their manifestation, has been re-routed into the manifestation of a new form of 'intelligent life', the descendants of, say, domestic house cats (I like cats, it'd be fair if they got consciousness next.) Now, the consciousness itself, we'll pare it down to just the Earth's consciousness, it's relationship to the solar system similar to the relationship between your consciousness and the earth's, it still retains all of the experience that was gained throughout the manifestation of mankind. Cat-people, as a result, live in a comparatively more 'evolved' state of consciousness. They are not technologically advanced as humans were at the end of their reign on earth, but they do have consciousness, and at the very core of that consciousness they share the same basic understanding of the great work, because that is the mandate of the consciousness that has manifested into them. Their Karma, in effect, was carried over from their collective past as domestic cats. They now perform the great work, and they continue to work out karma and advance consciousness in that way.

Do you see where all this is going? The material universe will still be here after we are not. You are taking this view of the great work as though it applies strictly to humans, and that is a common human ego assumption to make. We are not the only people doing the great work. We will not be the last people to do the work. We are not the first. The earth, everything on it, and the universe, it was not all brought into manifestation just for us, so that we could do this sacred work. We just happen to have evolved into a complex enough biological form that we are able to contain a more complex pattern of energy, which is able to more closely emulate higher consciousness than many other - but not all! - biological forms, and therefore has more ability to utilize consciousness freely. The ENTIRE manifested universe is doing the Work. It is all conscious, in so many ways innumerable, with so many different faces of purpose and capability, in order to complete a Work that is, in reality, far, far more massive and far-reaching than what you seem to be talking about. We are just a little part of it, and the engine of evolution and ascension will continue towards an infinite future that cannot be stopped.

No, the great work cannot fail. God, the Divine Consciousness, the Source, Chaos into Form into Chaos, YHVH, The Force, whatever or whoever we want to call it, cannot fail, because it is eternal, immutable, and in comparison to our Ego Sphere of consciousness, immaculately perfect.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't help anyone out, that the individual should be out for number one, what I'm saying is that the key to completing our part of the Work is not in mincing words over correct dogma, picking which tradition is right or wrong, making sure everyone is on the same page, but in learning to open our hearts and minds to the will fo the higher consciousness in the way that each individual structure of incarnation needs, and it is not the same for each person. People accomplish this in different ways, there is no one catch all dogma, and now that we are learning that, we are pursuing a more individualized path, each person now free from centuries, millenia even, of dogmatic rule in which a handful of people decided the best way for everyone to progress spiritually. That didn't work, and now that we are so many, we can explore an even greater number of possibilities and paths, and we DO in FACT have the freedom to do so as we please. No matter how many individuals fail to find their way this ONE time, eventually, we all are headed in the same direction.

Should we take responsibility for it and do as much of the Work as we can? Certainly! But in the end, a few will ascend, and the rest go back to the melting pot. That's just the way it is. Seperating the pure from the impure.

You're right, it does all sound like dogma. But so is the objecive universe - a physical dogma, which as we understand it's true nature bit by bit, becomes less of a rigid dogma overtime. Evolution.

peace

In the interest of focusing the point of this thread, while I certainly look forward to your response to what's been presented so far, I would also be interested to hear your solution to this 'problem' with the demystification of magick.

Wat do you propose we should do differently, and why? So far you've pointed out a possible problem, and where it came from, but as is often suggested in one of my favorite novel series, "Think of the solution, not the problem."

So far I actually am having a difficult time understanding specifically what you are saying is the problem, it's gotten lost in all that's been brought up so far, the great work, the fate of initiate souls, and all that.

If I might attempt to summarize, it's possible I understand what you're saying more than I think I do.

I'm to understand, that you believe that because newfound seekers are able to simply read and commit to memory 'dogmas' of magick, which are essentially just anecdotes and examples of what to do, without a preamble on why it works and an deeper understanding of the mystical principles which enable magick, the integrity of the Great Work is put to risk as these would-be initiates, rather than being guided into a proper understanding of said principles, are more likely to damage their spiritual integrity one way or another, by practicing without proper wisdom. Does that sum it up basically? Further on, your talk of symbolism, koans, etc., seems to say that you believe that the solution is to be more cryptic with such 'secrets' and make the inititiates think harder and practice in order to experience before they inherit dogma and anecdote. Correct?

Its true that your very first post seemed to evince this, but like myself, It seems that you tend to get very profusely verbal about even simple concepts. I'm not criticising, I think it's the condition of a very analytical and intelligent mind, especially one that enjoys writing in the first place. I just don't want to wander too far off topic and lose the original point.

If I didn't summarize that in totality, or simply missed the point, then correct my interpretation so that I can reorient this conversation properly.

peace

Its true that your very first post seemed to evince this, but like myself, It seems that you tend to get very profusely verbal about even simple concepts. I'm not criticising, I think it's the condition of a very analytical and intelligent mind, especially one that enjoys writing in the first place. I just don't want to wander too far off topic and lose the original point.

If I didn't summarize that in totality, or simply missed the point, then correct my interpretation so that I can reorient this conversation properly.

peace

Ave

Yes, I can get profusely verbal, and I have noticed that you can too.

I'm to understand, that you believe that because newfound seekers are able to simply read and commit to memory 'dogmas' of magick, which are essentially just anecdotes and examples of what to do, without a preamble on why it works and an deeper understanding of the mystical principles which enable magick, the integrity of the Great Work is put to risk as these would-be initiates, rather than being guided into a proper understanding of said principles, are more likely to damage their spiritual integrity one way or another, by practicing without proper wisdom. Does that sum it up basically? Further on, your talk of symbolism, koans, etc., seems to say that you believe that the solution is to be more cryptic with such 'secrets' and make the inititiates think harder and practice in order to experience before they inherit dogma and anecdote. Correct?

Yes, that is a good summation.

Highlighting something like, 'the dogma of no dogma' is circular logic. There are multiple traditions and schools of thought, and they all have their paradigms of dogma. By and large, people are beginning to spread out their study and practice over many schools, in effect cancelling the dogma they have learned and replacing it with direct experience over time. There is no such thing as a 'dogma of no dogma.' That's like saying that chaos magick is a tradition of strict adherence to nothing. It's not strict adherence if there's nothing to adhere to. Taking that point of view is creating a dogma on purpose which defies the meaning of dogma, just to say that it's really dogma.

This is it's self circular logic, but this is quite possible, and is, such as Atheism, is a religion, and will always be a religion, even if it is obtains it's goal (of some millitant sects) of erradicating religion.

Your arguments remind me of a philosophy I previously had adopted, in a time when I was desperately seeking a teacher and ignoring the revelations that were pouring in my window because I didn't believe I was capable of instructing myself, of learning these mystical insights properly, without someone to guide me step by step. I believed I needed proper initiation. Then I learned that the universe is the Great Teacher, that the Guru is not A GURU, but THE GURU principle, which is accessible to all who care to open themselves to it. Perhaps that philosophy will work out for you in the end, perhaps it is working now, but I and many, many others who are advancing just fine on their own, chose to discard it as a limiting dogma which no longer had any place in modern spirituality. If it comes off as condescending, then my apologies are in order for a lack of attention to the words I used to express that view.

I have never presumed to judge your spiritual maturity, so I will once again hope that you do not again. I do not understand where you suppose that I wish to guide everyone, you are taking my words out of context. To everyone you meet, you are a teacher put there by both your Higher Self and their Higher Self, and you are also a student, so don't f%*! it up is all I'm asking, lol. And really, to intentionally foul up your argument, how do you know that this is a lesson you need to learn and not reject? I am listening on my end, and I do agree with you on some points, I simply ask that you stick to the original new age plan and keep questioning instead of just saying "the law is lawlessness" and "we've questioned" or even worse,"they've questioned".

This is what I mean by the individual responsibility to grasp these vague 'higher principles' that keep coming up. You're asking good questions, but your adhering strictly to a particular line of reasoning. Have you had experiential proof of this belief that the great work can fail? Have you observed a life over many incarnations, to know for certain that it can continue to fail each time? What factors have come to bear in your life to instigate your spiritual seeking? You may want to believe that it was totally your own free will, your choice to take up this work, but was it really? Was there no element of your life which inspired that path?

This is exactly the response I wanted. Do not simply assume the the world will work itself out or not, that it is destined to succeed or destined to fail, until you have seen and you have known! Until then, the most good seems to come from acting as though the whole of the Great Work rests on your shoulders.

As for the man-exclusivity that you drew from my responses, I do not see it, though I do know that we were talking about human beings and I used the term mankind as that is what human beings are. I do not disagree with you about the intellegence of the universe, or the catholicism of the Great Work being worked, I just speak of how misguidance can occur in any rigidly formed belief system, based around any kind of dogma, be it visible, or invisible,

Ad Scientiam

Ave

The views you express seem to point to there being nothing that can hinder anyone, and I'm not speaking of a belief structure, but actions taken in a belief structure, and in this view, some one who watches football is advancing just as much as you are, there is not a difference, as every action is progress. And above I spoke not of discarding anything, but even more, the work with those "denizens of hell" that can indeed be harmful to a person if they are not ready. And even more illustrious of my point is this Dogma of everything being good and every action, even "negative" ones are for the "best", how did you recieve this revelation? How do you interpret such a thing, all of it's rammifications, of this, the Highest Law of the Aeon? Surely you know, having Understood it as the Ipsissimus you must be, to see beyond all actions and being. This is the hinderance that I'm speaking of, the Dogmatism that is rotting the magical community. Do not quote verses at me from the Book of the Law or what have you and further illustrate my point.
I am speaking of direction, not of any kind of guiding, I only speak that some may see that their actions do indeed have negative consequences, not only upon themselves, but others as well. I am speaking ESPECIALLY of warning them, as you said above. To say otherwise is fluff, and to evoke the idea of "the assumption of the universe back to the All" as reason for inaction, tantamount Magickal Nihilism (considering of course you are not Magi of Chockmah, as this is a high law) why do anything at all? These are questions that the occult community is avoiding, and hold double starndards for both.

"

I am saying exactly this. Stop spreading foolishness, which is folly for folly's sake without guidance from the Higher Self, the inverse of the Divine Fool, who thinks imself God and no other. Samael they are all. That's all I am trying to express.

Ad Scientiam

Now you are accusing me of spreading foolishness.And by what authority you claim I am spreading foolishness? "Do not quote verses from the Book of the Law"-and you are some kind of authority that will prevent me from quoting what I want?

And even more illustrious of my point is this Dogma of everything being good and every action, even "negative" ones are for the "best", how did you recieve this revelation? How do you interpret such a thing, all of it's rammifications, of this, the Highest Law of the Aeon? [/code]

You entirely missed my point.ALL experience,good and bad is part of the evolution.It must be experienced.All experience is a form of lesson.
Now the ever glorious Frater Ra Hoor Khuit,Ipsissimus,Mahavatar and God upon Earth is signing off.

This post has been edited by Ra Hoor Khuit: Jan 31 2007, 05:53 AM

Greetings!
As an old fart, I am truly enjoying this thread! I wish to be still around in fourty years to hear what you(all) have to say about it then. No, I have no useful things to add here save that it is glorious to listen to younger people discussing their views in such broad terms! You(all) seem to be explaining the roadmap on the skin of the same orange... Alot of what has gone on before will be doomed to repeat itself until the lessons are learned. Good thread! Good posts! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/horse.gif) ...just for the humor, which abounds in this universe!

Greetings to all..
I feel sort of like I am butting into a conversation that's a bit above me, so please excuse me if I am out of line.. .

Since I am new to the arts, perhaps I can add a different view to this conversation? ..

As someone who is new, I've found that the secrets are still well kept. While it's true that everything is easily accessed - (any text, or grimoire you ever wanted is listed online somewhere) - It's only true IF you know what to look for. To my uninitiated eyes, the amount of information out there is overwhelming and it's tough to sift through everything and decide what path to follow, what step to take, what to do next. This has forced me to spend hours searching and reading and taking my time. In a sense, the amount of info available has the same effect as if secrets were still kept... (kind of hard to explain, but I hope you can understand)...

I'm sure there are probably some foolhardy individuals out there who jump right in and don't think before they act, but I have to believe that those people are destined for failure no matter.. Even if things were different, would they have the patience and constitution to stick around long enough for anything to be revealed to them?

I apologize in advance if I offered an opinon that offends or is incorrect. It is hard to explain how things look through the eyes of someone trying to grasp hold of everything..

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think in the end, we're all talking about the same things.

I can see your point, acting as though the work can fail in order to instigate a more responsible attitude. Some people will take that stance, others will not. Truthfully, though, diversity is the key to evolution - all these viewpoints ultimately broaden the range of human spirituality, so they are all precious.

We're all little kids in the eyes of God, Bym! I have to wonder, too, what life will be like in forty years. So far the past ten have totally blown my mind, and the older I get the more I am excited too see what else is around the corner! It's hard to empathize with the fear of old age and death that a lot of people, especially in my demographic, seem to be drive by. Every year is another adventure!

Anyone else who would like to post their views on our responsibility, or lack thereof, towards supporting the great work in one way or another, please feel free! Perspective is one thing that we can never have enough of.

peace

In the interest of focusing the point of this thread, while I certainly look forward to your response to what's been presented so far, I would also be interested to hear your solution to this 'problem' with the demystification of magick.

Wat do you propose we should do differently, and why? So far you've pointed out a possible problem, and where it came from, but as is often suggested in one of my favorite novel series, "Think of the solution, not the problem."

So far I actually am having a difficult time understanding specifically what you are saying is the problem, it's gotten lost in all that's been brought up so far, the great work, the fate of initiate souls, and all that.

If I might attempt to summarize, it's possible I understand what you're saying more than I think I do.

I'm to understand, that you believe that because newfound seekers are able to simply read and commit to memory 'dogmas' of magick, which are essentially just anecdotes and examples of what to do, without a preamble on why it works and an deeper understanding of the mystical principles which enable magick, the integrity of the Great Work is put to risk as these would-be initiates, rather than being guided into a proper understanding of said principles, are more likely to damage their spiritual integrity one way or another, by practicing without proper wisdom. Does that sum it up basically?

Greetings All,

I have read over the threads that have been transpiring above and I would like to at least give an somewhat different and hopefully objectifiable view of some of what I have come to acknowledge.

When I come to compare todays Magicakal Societies to the Magickal Societies of the Ancient times, Medieval times, or Middle Ages then I honestly have to attempt to qualify the Environment and Governing Systems of these times with the need for such Secret Orders.

From what I have studied in both Ancient History Texts to the Middle Ages there have been Societies that could be considered as Secret, where Initiation and Oath Bonds was termed necessary by the members or those within the group. My Question as is that of some represented in this forum, is Why? As I have sought this answer before and as I have above mentioned one must consider the Social Ideologies as well as the Politiacal Ideas held by the majority of Society at those times. One could ask what do those questions matter in this conversation? Please let me explain my thought.

In Ancient Times as well as in the Medieval and Middle Ages, who one alligned themselves with Politically could determine whether one had Rights as a citizen, whether one could marry, whether one could seek gainful employment, etc... And What Religious or Spiritual views one expressed and practiced could determine if one was hailed before Magistrates of the Lands to be tried for deviant practives which in times past could result in the loss of ones property, ones freedom, or ones life.

To me in the Ancient, Medeival and Middle Ages it would have been to ones survival that one besought to be a member of an Order that, (A) Took Oath not to reveal other Members, why? So if one got caught they would be constrained about divulging their fellow members to be delivered to the Magistrates. (B) Took Oath not to reveal Location of their Practices, or what was practiced in these places, Why? This ensured that the groups or Orders refuge was kept intact and not seized by the Magistrates or those Ruling Factions that may seek to do them Ill.

This may all seem as if it is extreme today, and in fact I would agree. Yet today in the Modern Society almost every Country of the World has got Civil and Human Rights where ones Beliefs, Practices, Livelihood and Freedoms are held as Inviolate and uncontested. This was not so in just the recent past. England had an Anti-Witchcraft Law that was not repealed until 1950, in Australia they had an Anti-Witchraft Law that suppressed any form of Paganism until the 1970's and actually to the surprise of many Pagans, Wicca today has been contested in Federal Court since the year 1968 to see whether it is actually a Religion or not.

The need in certain times for Magickal or other ALternative Spiritual or or Minority Orders as in times past has been necessary. Yet In the modern days of the expressed Liberties by the majority of the Countries of the World we are as a World going through changes that mean that one mans, or one groups Safety, Livelihood, Properties, Familes and Life can not be taken away due to the fact that a person accepts or denies any basic or Dogmatic Tenet of any other group.

The Universe fortunatley isn't closed from revelaing certain truths to Mankind, and again fortunately Mankind does not make Universal Laws concerning who is, or is not able to comprehend or utilize a truth. All the teachings that have been termed Secret are in my opinion observations of some Universal Law or Perception of the Universe that becomes, as time goes by more Common Knowledge among Mankind. Do some people show forth more of an understanding to certain truths they observe, whether in Nature or by Man? I would anser Yes to that, but in each area of Life we are finding that Magick and it's once held Arcane Secrets are becoming with the advance of translations of various Sacred and Secret Texts transparent in that practically every Ancient Doctrine from various World Religions or Cults carries with it Collective Beliefs or Archetypal Structures that are reflected in other Religions found at different Geographical Locations and from different Cultures.

I feel that their is a need for confidence and discretion concerning the what, when, and where someone speaks of certain things but to believe that one must Abide by an Oath to not reveal a certain teaching because of Tradition, with the Oaths act of having a Sword at the nape of the neck if one speaks a word, in this Age of the Information Society, where I can attest that I have been a member of various Orders some Secret, some not Secret and their teachings I can find online or in the bookstore shelves with proliferation, is to me an act of futility.

I believe that in order for the Great Work, which to me means, extending the Liberty of Knowledge and Experience to all of mankind by coming to terms with the fact that Life is the greatest Teacher. I will give one example since their has been a lot of speaking about Aleister Crowley's Law of Thelema and Will. As a Matter of fact Aleister Crowley was at one time an Initiate in The Golden Dawn a Secret Society which has only survived due to the fact that some of the Higher Adepts have actually made the Initiations and Teachings Public Knowledge by Books and Lectures. Yet, at the beginning of his Magickal Career Aleister Crowley after spending some time with the Golden Dawn in the Late 1800's was denied advancement because certain Honored Fraters believed him to be inadequate and unstable to receive further Truth. However Aleister Crowley went on to Revive the Ordo Templi Orientis and was accepted by the German Outer Head of the Order as Succesor of the O.T.O. which he accepted and became one of the Greatest prolific writers of Magickal Practices and Theory as well as other publications.

And then it is historically recorded that Aleister Crowley even turned his Library and Order Secret Papers over to a University Library to be photocopied and open for Public Record. Why did he do this,? because, I believe he noted that in order for a Society to Evolve it takes an openess and an awareness of all aspects of Knowledge, Experience, and Perception of not only Traditions, but also of the Day to Day Life of the Present in order to Bring Liberty to the World.

And I will close by saying, One Master taught, "When you light a candle, you do not place it under a bushel basket, but you place it upon a stand so it can shed light to all present. And what you hear in Secret, shout it on the roof top."

Respectfully,
Helel (Joseph)

in this Age of the Information Society, where I can attest that I have been a member of various Orders some Secret, some not Secret and their teachings I can find online or in the bookstore shelves with proliferation, is to me an act of futility.

As a Matter of fact Aleister Crowley was at one time an Initiate in The Golden Dawn a Secret Society which has only survived due to the fact that some of the Higher Adepts have actually made the Initiations and Teachings Public Knowledge by Books and Lectures.

And then it is historically recorded that Aleister Crowley even turned his Library and Order Secret Papers over to a University Library to be photocopied and open for Public Record. Why did he do this,?

I think it is important to deal with the concept of "magical secrets" before we debate what to do with them. So far, the whole idea of just what constitutes a magical secret has been discussed in vague or subjective terms. I present a structure whereby to evaluate these things before we decide our responsibilities toward them:

1. Secrets of Method... how to do spells and conjurations
2. Secrets of Application... what you can actually expect from a spell or conjuration
3. Secrets of Guesswork... your own peersonal beliefs and theories
4. Secrets of Exclusivists... group-sharing of 1, 2, and 3

Since just about any type 1 (practical method) can be found in print somewhere, it's a moot point whether or not you tell someone how to make voodoo dolls. if you don't, they can still get the information, and you're not saving anyone from anything by keeping them in the dark. By sharing type 2 secrets, you might give them better ideas about what to expect, what not to expect, and how to aim for more worthwhile results.

A lot of people really feel like their personal experiences and and beliefs amount to great secrets of some kind. Although you're well within your rights to keep things private, making a big deal out of something insubstantiated by fact is just a way to make BS sound more important. Unless these secrets lead to type 1 or 2 secrets, they're usually not worth the time it takes to pick them from someone else. As to the final type of secret, those under oath, I'd say you're obliged to keep them if you value your oaths, as with any personal matter discussed in confidence.

Crowley didn't reveal much from the golden Dawn itself, which was active for only a few short years anyhow. He published the Goetia, but this isn't exclusive to the GD, and it wasn't until more than 20 years after the GD went completely defunct that Regardie (Crowley's secretary) made the materials public. Mathers' claims to being in contact with Secret Chiefs (a type 3 secret), coupled with bad behavior on all sides of the order, led to its eventual collapse, several imprisonments, infamous bickering, and the Spanish Flu by which Crowley finally "destroyed terrible Mathers."

Crowley's own syllabus, Liber 185, instructs the Probationer and every successive grade: " He shall everywhere proclaim openly his connection with the A.'. A.'. and speak of It and Its principles (even so little as he understandeth) for that mystery is the enemy of Truth."

Having thought for a little while about this idea of what should and shouldn't be expressed, there is one concession I have to make on the matter that didn't really cross my mind on the original discussion. And, I don't really know if I would say that it's an absolute, but it goes along with what Imperial Arts was calling Type 3 secrets, sort of.

On the subject of spiritual experiences and teaching, one 'Guru' that I had the chance to speak with said something that I have read elsewhere, though I forget who wrote it. She said (paraphrased), that the spiritual experience is totally personal, and that while there may be basic similarity from one person to the next, and that the essential truth remains constant, there is no way to predict exactly what experience any individual will have with certainty on every detail. If any singular detail is given to the pupil, then he will expect to have that exact experience through a particular practice, and may miss the true experience while he waits patiently for the experience he has now assumed he must have.

When it comes to the dogmas, the traditions, the anecdotes about how to do magick, etc., I don't think there is any danger. However, it's difficult to talk about experiences and discuss what we are going through, get feedback, and grow in that way, without getting attached to what other people are experiencing and believing that we need to experience the same exact thing. It's probably even harder for people who are new to magick and spirituality.

But, also, it's impossible to get around that and still have a community like what we have.

I don't know about starting like a magickal order or anything, but maybe we could start some kind of a mentorship program for the forum? Hmm......

peace

Ave

That post above, Vagrant Dreamer, was the exact thing I was trying to get at, but couldn't find the words. Passion, in this case, obscured my vision.

Ra Hoor Khuit, I was speaking in broad terms about the entire modern esoteric community, not any of those things said were aimed at you, nor any one person, and I humbly apologize if it seemed that way.

Ad Scientiam