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| Vagrant Dreamer |
 May 18 2007, 06:56 PM
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Practicus
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QUOTE(Edunpanna @ May 18 2007, 08:10 AM)  Kinda makes you wonder why the sigil is not like this.
Kinda makes you wonder why the sigil is not like this. Maybe it is. It's not unheard of to 'cut down' a dangerous sigil a bit so that the unawares won't be able to make use of it without the proper knowledge. It's a practice I use to make use of - take out particular key elements of a sigil when recording them, so that when i use them I remember to move this part there, or to add in the missing piece. Don't really worry about it to much nowadays. If I were writing the necronomicon, and was a priest of the elder gods, and didn't want future generations to get into contact with the ancient ones, I'd mess with the sigils... peace
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The world is complicated - that which makes it up is elegantly simplistic, but infinitely versatile.
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| scorpionis |
May 19 2007, 08:54 PM
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So you do not think that the Humwawa sigil is based on the shape of the Humbaba statue and the Pazuzu sigil based on the Pazuzu statue?
For me this is very clear. The person who created these two sigils created abstract forms connected to the traditional shape in which these two "spirits" most often are visualized. This actually makes the sigils very powerful…
Not because they are ancient, but because they have by their creator been connected to a very ancient source, the same source that the oldest Pazuzu and Humbaba statues taped into.
Here is some info about Huwawa and Pazuzu:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"In Akkadian mythology Humbaba (Assyrian spelling) or Huwawa (Babylonian) was a monstrous giant who was also the guardian of the Cedar Forest where the gods lived. His face is that of a lion. In various sources, his face is like that of the coiled entrails of men and beasts (Myths From Mesopotamia, Dalley. Oxford University Press.) This has lead to the name "Guardian of the Fortress of Intestines." He is the brother of Pazuzu and Enki and son of Hanbi.
In the Epic of Gilgamesh, after they become friends following a fight, Gilgamesh and Enkidu set out on an adventure to the celestial Cedar Forest to slay Humbaba. Gilgamesh tricks the monster into giving away his seven "radiances" by asking to be his brother in law. When Humbaba's guard is down, Gilgamesh punches him and captures the monster. Defeated, Humbaba appeals to a receptive Gilgamesh for mercy but Enkidu convinces Gilgamesh to slay Humbaba. In a last effort, Humbaba tries to escape but is decapitated by Gilgamesh. Enlil, the god who set Humbaba as the forest's guardian, becomes enraged upon learning this and redistributes Humbaba's seven splendors (or "auras") to others. It is interesting to note that no vengeance was laid upon the heroes. Some believe that Humbaba was not a god or demon but just a giant.
In Assyrian and Babylonian mythology, the god Pazuzu was the king of the demons of wind, and son of the god Hanbi. He also represented the southwestern wind, the bearer of storms.
Pazuzu is the god of the South-west wind that was known for bringing droughts and famine during dry seasons, and locusts during rainy seasons. Pazuzu was invoked in amulets aimed at fighting against the powers of his hated rival, the malicious goddess Lamashtu, who was believed to cause harm to mother and child during childbirth. Pazuzu is also a god who protected humans against plague and evil forces, in particular the evil goddess Lamashtu."
I would actually say that it is not correct to place Humbaba and Pazuzu amongst the ancient ones, for according to the ancient lore they were not part of the Spawn of Chaos.
But like many other ancient spirits that have been demonized by modern culture and religion, the powers/essence connected to their names and forms are today maybe closer to what people have come to expect from them and not to what they originally represented.
A god forgotten is a demon born…
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| Sephiroth |
May 27 2007, 05:26 PM
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Hi All! Interesting topic! I would say that I can definitely see the resemblance of the sigils to the statues and particulalry in the case of the Pazuzu sigil with the arrows seeming to follow or outline the direction of the arms rather than the wings, say; and probably the round bit in the middle of the sigil corresponding to the groin area of the statue... With the Humwawa sigil, it certainly seems to follow the contours of the mask to a great degree and also seems to strengthen the concept of "...his face is like that of the coiled entrails of men and beasts..." From what you are saying Scorpionis and Edunpanna, it seems to me that Pazuzu as a whole might have been eventually possibly incorporated into christianity and evolved into the modern concepts of the Devil, as Pazuzu's legend in the first part where he is fitting the first description as a servant and punisher in service of god - as he was the angel Lucifer - God's mightiest angel before the Fall, then he became too prideful and challenged or disagreed with God and became the Devil and has all the attributes of Pazuzu perhaps and has now become the Devil archetype? That all said, I don't have any experience with Pazuzu - yet? That ritual you mentioned using his power sounds interesting though, Scorpionis! Nice one guys! I wonder if there is any other overlap between the sigils and other depictions of the gods, demons etc? say any of the 50 names, Lilit, Xastur, etc? (IMG: style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Sephiroth
"In my veins courses the blood of the ancients... I am one of the rightful heirs to this planet!"
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| scorpionis |
May 27 2007, 05:56 PM
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Hello Sephiroth,
Well, the thing is that outside the movie "The Exorcist" and the Necronomicon of Simon Pazuzu was actually never "fallen". Within the ancient texts he is NOT described as a "Satan". He is just one of the more harmful gods, but he was not an enemy of the other gods and he was never banished by the rest of the gods.
So my point is actually that Pazuzu within his original spiritual context was NOT one of the Ancient Ones. He was not one of the Dark Gods, spawned by Hubur (Wrathful Tiamat).
That is the whole point. Because of modern ideas he have come to be viewed as a Demonic and Evil god, but if you think about it you will see that he actually was a powerful shield against the Evil Goddess Lamashtu. So he should not be counted as one of the Dark Gods of Chaos.
The same can be said about Ereshkigal and Nergal, they rule the underworld/realm of the dead, yes, but they have nothing to do with Tiamat. They are, according to the original sources about Babylonian mythos, just like all other cosmic gods and served their own ordained purpose.
In Necronomicon Ereshkigal is somehow linked to Tiamat and the forces of Chaos. This is not correct! Ereshkigal is actually very similar to the Hellenic goddess Persephone. They rule over the Chthonic kingdom of the dead, but they are NOT viewed as "Satanic" or "Anti-cosmic".
The Christian concept of good and evil did not exist, and many of the "good" gods had destructive aspects and attributes. That does not make them the same as the Ancient Ones (forces of Chaos and anti-creation).
Actually beside the Simonomicon (and the movie The Exorcist) there are no other older sources that describe Pazuzu as an Evil God who serve the forcess of Chaos/Tiamat.
Xastur is the Lovecraftian Hastur, so there are no ancient statues or images representing him, as he did not exist before lovercraft made him (or at least his name) up.
Hail His Blood!
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| Darkside099 |
 May 28 2007, 02:19 AM
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QUOTE(scorpionis @ May 18 2007, 05:32 PM) Well, if you study the role that Pazuzu had within the practical magic and religion of ancient Babylon you will find that he was more a banisher of death than what he was a death bringer.
Almost all Pazuzu statues, amulets and pictures that are found had the function of repelling the Evil Goddess Lamashtu. I have never found an incantation or banishing that is AGAINST Pazuzu himself. He was feared, yes, but was mainly used as a protective and powerful force against Lamashtu.
As I have understood it Pazuzu was actually depicted on amulets that protected against the Child Killing Fever that was caused by the death dealing touch of Great Lamashtu.
Search for information about Pazuzu outside the lore of Necronomicon and the movie The Exorcist and you will find information that is very different to what most people connect to him.
He had control over the hot and disease bringing wind, but his practical role within the operative sorcery was to protect childbearing mothers and infants from sickness and death. Yeah I know all this! Oh my GOD! Thank you! Just now as I read this I somehow got the feeling that it's something people did not understand about Pazuzu! Now maybe I know why he killed some people for me! It's not about the powers but as a way to have justice done. Now I remember something about Pazuzu that I will tell you. He was respected but only by those who understood him and those who did not, well they feared him like you said. Anyways it does not matter because people at one point when they feared witches, they killed them. Thanks to you I somehow found out some confusion that somehow the Elder Gods would not really reveal to me but then again the contract is specific. Thanks again! (IMG: style_emoticons/default/922.gif) |
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| DarkGoddess |
May 28 2007, 09:36 AM
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QUOTE(scorpionis @ May 27 2007, 07:56 PM) The same can be said about Ereshkigal and Nergal, they rule the underworld/realm of the dead, yes, but they have nothing to do with Tiamat. They are, according to the original sources about Babylonian mythos, just like all other cosmic gods and served their own ordained purpose.
In Necronomicon Ereshkigal is somehow linked to Tiamat and the forces of Chaos. This is not correct! Ereshkigal is actually very similar to the Hellenic goddess Persephone. They rule over the Chthonic kingdom of the dead, but they are NOT viewed as "Satanic" or "Anti-cosmic". Yes, very much so. people tend to link god(esses) of the dead as evil. Not so, they simply rule a sphere or domain that is a bit darker than the others. They are also seen as evil because part of their role is that of punisher. It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it. (IMG: style_emoticons/default/00000047.gif) QUOTE(scorpionis @ May 27 2007, 07:56 PM) Xastur is the Lovecraftian Hastur, so there are no ancient statues or images representing him, as he did not exist before lovercraft made him (or at least his name) up. Not true. She is very real. The Simon Necronomicon may describe her much like Lovecraft's Hastur, but let's just say that is inaccurate. She seems closely linked to Lilit in type and personality, but serves a different role in Ereshkigal's scheme of things than does Lilit.
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To these I turn, in these I trust;
Brother Lead and Sister Steel.
To his blind power I make appeal;
I guard her beauty clean from rust.
He spins and burns and loves the air,
And splits a skull to win my praise;
But up the nobly marching days
She glitters naked, cold and fair.
Sweet Sister, grant your soldier this;
That in good fury he may feel
The body where he sets his heel
Quail from your downward darting kiss.
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| Ashnook |
May 28 2007, 10:01 AM
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simoniconist
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QUOTE(scorpionis @ May 27 2007, 06:56 PM) In Necronomicon Ereshkigal is somehow linked to Tiamat and the forces of Chaos. This is not correct! Ereshkigal is actually very similar to the Hellenic goddess Persephone. They rule over the Chthonic kingdom of the dead, but they are NOT viewed as "Satanic" or "Anti-cosmic". You are wrong. I am not going to tip toe through the tulips about this since you sound like an intelligent person. You could not be further from the truth other than you statement that they serve a non-satanic function. The Necronomicon does not link Ereshkigal to Tiamat in any way. Perhaps to the lay reader of the book it does but a quick read over it and a bit of investigation shows quite the contrary. The Necronomicon encourages the experienced Priest to investigate the Underworld and to ensure that its forces know their place. The Necronomicon gives its operators the responsibility of keeping the balance between the Underworld and the Earth. It is no surprise that Enki, the Necronomicon's most important deity, lives in the Absu waters which are located between the Underworld and the Earth. Only when the operator gains some mastery over this balance is he then able to monitor the outside gates and keep them shut.....keep their forces at bay. It is also no mystery that Agents of the Ancient Ones, their priests and so forth, use the Underworld in their rituals, rites, and callings. NO CLEARER IS THIS THAN IN THE NAME OF THEIR SACRIFICIAL BOWL, THE DUR OF INDUR. The Necronomicon never states that Pazuzu is an Ancient One. The Urilla text likes to jumble Underworld deities and Ancient Ones together but any serious reading of the text reveals this not the be the case, nor the intent of the Author. One finds the outside through the Underworld, which is why the two are often mentioned in the same passages. It is also no secret that Underworld deities are used for curses much more often than Overworld deities. If the Priest is to root out evil, he or she must be familiar with both the Underworld and the Outside, another reason why the Urilla places them so close. Look at Pazuzu's wings. Two are pointed up and two are pointed down, two to the heavens and two to the Underworld. This should clue in the operator that he embodies duality. One hand is lifted to the heavens, the other to the Underworld. He is both protector and destroyer. He both causes and takes away sickness. This does not mean that summoning or working with Pazuzu is like summoning the prince of cup-cakes. Think of Pazuzu as that friend of one of your friends who is an a$%*#!* and constantly has a splinter in his finger. He would probably have your back in a shit storm, but not always your first pick to drink a few beers with on a Saturday afternoon. Pazuzu may give you life or death, remember he is a deity of duality. He is often a tempter who tests the Priest on his journey. I also find your correlation between Persephone and Ereshkigal quite suspect. (IMG: style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif)
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| scorpionis |
May 28 2007, 01:22 PM
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Okay, to start with I must say that when I comment the necronomicon I comment the whole book, from the first page of the book to the last. For I am convinced that the author of the introduction of the book is also the author that has put together the Necronomicon text. I guess I am talking about "Simon".
This does NOT make the book useless in my opinion, but fact is fact and I will give him credit for putting together a great and interesting synthesis between Babylonian mythology (Enuma Elish is Babylonian creation myth, not Sumerian) and the Lovecraftian mythos. The system WORKS, but that does not mean that the book is historically authentic. All myths and magical systems are created by man, sometimes guided by the inspiration given from the Gods. So just because Simon created the version of the Necronomicon we talk about it does not mean that its magic is without power.
With that being said I return to the topic and point out the text on page xviii, xix and xxiii of the introduction chapter. In these pages you can see how the author connects the Chthonic to Kutulu and therefore also Chaos/Tiamat. He identifies Kutulu with Absu and because of that the Man of Kuta becomes, within that context, the male ruler of Chaotic forces. On page xxiii you can read:
"...For she descended into the Underworld and defeated her sister, the Goddess of the Abyss, Queen ERESHKIGAL (possibly another name for TIAMAT)."
On page 161 of the book you can read:
"...So that the strike ringeth out
And call TIAMAT from Her slumber
From her sleep in the Caverns Of the Earth."
The "Caverns of the Earth" is the chthonic realm (the underworld), and this is again something that points out Tiamat as the Queen of the Underworld. This is also something that you can not find in the original Babylonian myth about Tiamat.
On page 161 you can also read about "Of the Generations of the Ancient Ones" and in that part of the text you can see that the Utuku Limnuti are mentioned together with PAZUZU. First you can read that they are all "In the creation of Anu spawned" and on page 162 you can again read that they "Are children of the Earth that in the creation of Anu were spawned, but on page 165, in the end of the "Of the Generations of the Ancient Ones" you can read that all the Underworld spirits named earlier in the text are:
"...At their Mother's breast
At the Foundation of CHAOS
In the Araliya of Mumu-TIAMAT
And at the Gates of Iak Sakkak"
This clearly points out the underworld spirit (The Seven and Pazuzu, but also all other spirits and ghosts that are mentioned in the parts of the text I have pointed out) as "Of the Generations of the Ancient Ones" and their Mother is named as Mumu-Tiamat.
So this is what I base my earlier comment upon. Simonomicon, from my perspective, places Tiamat in the realm of Ereshkigal and identifies Ereshkigals servants/demons/ghosts/vampires and gods as the children of Chaos. This is not something that can be found within the traditional Babylonian mythology and religion.
And this was what I pointed out before.
On page 174 of the necronomicon you can again read how :
"ERESHKIGAL rejoiced.
Blind AZAG-THOTH rejoiced
iAK SAKKAK rejoiced.
ISHNIGGARAB rejoiced.
KUTULU rejoiced..."
This clearly places Ereshkigal amongst the Ancient Ones and shows how they are by her side and celebrate her Victory. The only one not named is Tiamat herself and one could argue that this is because Ereshkigal herself is viewed as a manifestation of Tiamat. But what is made VERY clear is that Ereshkigal is placed as one of the members of the group of dark gods that Azag-Thot, Iak Sakkak, Ishniggarab and Kutulu belong to. And this is what I pointed out.
Pazuzu is not "prince of cup-cakes", no. But he is not of the "generation of the Ancient Ones" either.
I am not saying that these forces are to be played around with. And I am not saying that they do not have very dark/destructive function. What I am saying is that the Ancient Ones are the Forces of Anti-creation (pro-Chaos) and the Underworld gods and spirits are NOT!
Also this talk about having Pazuzu killing people right and left, to be honest I am not sure what I believe about that kind of talk. If you kill through magic the first thing you learn is to keep silent about it. But that is off topic.
Hope I have made clear what I meant in my earlier post about the above mentioned subject.
About Persephone and Ereshkigal, you do not see the similarity between the FUNCTION of Nergal/Hades and Ereshkigal/Persephone? But that is not really important in the present discussion.
Also you have to pardon my poor English.
This post has been edited by scorpionis: May 28 2007, 01:26 PM
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| scorpionis |
May 28 2007, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE(Imperial Arts @ May 28 2007, 12:45 PM) Could it then be that the writer of the Necronomicon (any of the several versions) had conjured his own spirits and bound them to the names of gods whose tales he did not know? In that case I would say that he conjured spiritual forces and connected them to the names of gods whose tales he DID know about! You know how I mean? Names and forms of gods are only symbols and symbols can become re-charged. their value is not static and their essence can change and/or be replaced. And example of this is Astaroth. Within the Qliphotic systems of magic Astaroth is a male demon of great power. But within the original context Astaroth is a name derived from the goddess Astarte. Astarte and Astaroth are now two totally different forces. So a name is just a name, what we mean by the name and the value that we charge it with is that which links it to the essence one can call forth through that name/word/symbol. The gods are in essence nameless. Names are relative symbols with ever changing essence , dependinging on by whom they are used and on the context they can be connected to totally different forces. So if he wanted to connect forces of Chaos and Order to the names of Babylonian and Lovecraftian mythos he could have done that. And if we invest belief into the system the names and symbols in question can be used in order to contact those spiritual forces. It is the Will and Understanding of the magician that calls forth the gods and the spirits, the names used are only the tools we use to manifest that Will and Understanding. |
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| Nosotro Tehuti |
May 28 2007, 02:17 PM
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Greetings Scorpionis,
I'm glad to some real theological discussion returning to the Necronomicon forum.
Okay, to Pazuzu momentarily. First, Tiamat as Ereshkigal.
I'm going to have to disagree with that one for a few reasons.
Firstly, Ereshkigal is described in Babylonian texts as being the Older sister of Inanna/Ishtar. If she were a manifestation of Tiamat, then her role would fall to a motherly/grandmotherly context, since she spawned the first Elder Gods and then they in turn created Ishtar, Shammash, Ninurta ,Ereshkigal etc. etc..
Also, using the fact that she is Queen of the Underworld as a reason why she is an ancient is misguided. The Underworld lies on the cusp of the Outside, touching it's Gates of Chaos. But it is not the Outside, nor the dwelling place of the Ancient Ones.
Ganzir is itself a representation of the Foundation. Ganzir lays below the Abzu, which is below the Material realm and so forth, going up. In that, it is defined as part of the structure of what Marduk created when he tore Tiamat in two. However, the Ancients were locked away, OUTSIDE of that structure. So defining Ganzir as the Outside is technically antithetical to the term itself.
As to my point about the 'generations' and Tiamat being different than Ereshkigal based on the Inanna connection.
TIAMAT mothered the Elder Gods LAHMU and LAHAMU (those of mud), which was also a title given to the gatekeepers at the ENKI temple in Eridu.
LAHMU and LAHAMU were the parents of the axis or pivot of the heavens ANSHAR, from An/ heaven, Shar / axle or pivot, and the earth Kishar. ANSHAR and KISHAR were said to come together on the horizon, becoming thereby the parents of ANU and KI.
TIAMAT was the "shining" personification of salt water. She and APSU filled the cosmic abyss with the primeval waters. She is UMMU-HUBBUR who formed all things.
Ereshkigal is a migthy Queen and Just Ruler, but surely not such a creator. To make her a manifestation of TIAMAT would mean she both gave birth to the parents of ANU and then was also his granddaughter.
Lastly is the death of TIAMAT at the hands of Marduk.
And the lord stood upon Tiamat's hinder parts,
And with his merciless club he smashed her skull.
He cut through the channels of her blood,
And he made the North wind bear it away into secret places.
Slicing Tiamat in half, he made from her ribs the vault of heaven and earth.
Her weeping eyes became the source of the Tigris and the Euphrates.
So in effect, Tiamat is the is the flesh of that whole Ganzir/Abzu/Material structure. Not just the ruling queen of one of it's divisions.
Oh, and Ereshkigal as Persephone? Nah. Persephone was abducted by Hades and forced to be his bride. Ereshkigal was the Queen of Hell long before she met Nergal. So, no disrespect to Mighty Nergal, but in that context he's more like Persephone that Ereshkigal is.lol
You wrote,;
"...So that the strike ringeth out
And call TIAMAT from Her slumber
From her sleep in the Caverns Of the Earth."
The "Caverns of the Earth" is the chthonic realm (the underworld), and this is again something that points out Tiamat as the Queen of the Underworld. This is also something that you can not find in the original Babylonian myth about Tiamat.
No, the 'caverns of the earth' are not the underworld. The 'caverns of the earth' in that stanza is a metaphor for the Binding of the Ancient ones by the Elder Gods. Just as demons are banished by saying 'go to the desert/ barra edin nazu.
And lastly on Ereshkigal/Tiamat. You stated;
"I am not saying that these forces are to be played around with. And I am not saying that they do not have very dark/destructive function. What I am saying is that the Ancient Ones are the Forces of Anti-creation (pro-Chaos) and the Underworld gods and spirits are NOT!"
Well, please clarify here. You state that Ereshkigal (a goddess of the underworld) is Tiamat, the Mother of Anti-Creation. Yet in that quote, you state that the underworld deities and spirits are not ancient ones. Do believe her to be Tiamat, an ancient one, or not?
As for Pazuzzu, I actually agree. He's a dark, manipulative bastard, but not evil. Much like the aforementioned Nergal. Both are feared but respected entities of disease. Both are arrogant jerks (joke,lol). But neither are evil. I agree that Pazuzzu is essentially filling a role.
As Ashnook said, he's a deity representing balance. Giver and taker of life. Play with him at your own risk.
Peace,
Nosotro Tehuti.
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ILAT ENKI, IMHAS INA LIBBU INE SU'ATI AMELNAKRU MANNU EMU SHU GUSHTUKUL ELI INA DINGIR!
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| DarkGoddess |
May 28 2007, 02:42 PM
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(IMG: style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif) Nosotro Tehuti, damn fine posting there! Ereshkigal is indeed not Tiamat, for all ther reasons you stated. For the newer people, please understand that I am not a magickian using the Necronomicon, I'm a prietess of Ereshkigal. I post here, because it's the best place to post about Sumerian deities, so I may not be very aware of what the Nec says about something versus more traditional mythology. However, what I have read from the Nec, there does seem to be some back and forth about Ereshkigal being an Elder God, versus an Ancient one. She is not Tiamat, She is not an Ancient One, She is one of the Elder Gods, performing her role in the universe that exists now. She's not all warm and fuzzy, but neither is She evil. Many of the Elder God may be seen as evil, or mistaken as Ancient Ones. People don't seem able to grasp the fact that Gods are different from us very well. They think different, they act different and are different in essence from us. Especially in our current society that values political correctness and the fallacy that everything is true, deities/entities like Ereshkigal, Nergal, Pazuzu, Humwawa, Lilit, et al will typically be seen as the embodiment of evil. Yet, they are not, they just don't fit into the "shiny, happy people" worldview that most want to delude themselves into believing. Death, disease, war, etc all serve purposes, and their ends must be accomplished. Those deities that rule over such are simply "doing their jobs".
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To these I turn, in these I trust;
Brother Lead and Sister Steel.
To his blind power I make appeal;
I guard her beauty clean from rust.
He spins and burns and loves the air,
And splits a skull to win my praise;
But up the nobly marching days
She glitters naked, cold and fair.
Sweet Sister, grant your soldier this;
That in good fury he may feel
The body where he sets his heel
Quail from your downward darting kiss.
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| Ashnook |
May 28 2007, 03:54 PM
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simoniconist
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QUOTE(scorpionis @ May 28 2007, 02:22 PM) Okay, to start with I must say that when I comment the necronomicon I comment the whole book, from the first page of the book to the last. For I am convinced that the author of the introduction of the book is also the author that has put together the Necronomicon text. I guess I am talking about "Simon". I have, for the most part, ignored a majority of Simon's introduction to the book. I hold the idea that the introduction is full of blatant blinds such as what you mentioned about Simon citing Tiamat as a possible name for Ereshkigal. I maintain that if Simon was serious about this assertion, ie it is not a blind, than there is no way that he wrote the bulk of the book (the actual text) as it is very explicit about what banishings to use, the roles of Tiamat and Ereshkigal, etc. That is not to say that there aren't a few gems in the introduction, but it bares little use, theoretical or practical, for anything beyond a general introduction into the Necronomicon. QUOTE(scorpionis @ May 28 2007, 02:22 PM) This does NOT make the book useless in my opinion, but fact is fact and I will give him credit for putting together a great and interesting synthesis between Babylonian mythology (Enuma Elish is Babylonian creation myth, not Sumerian) and the Lovecraftian mythos. The system WORKS, but that does not mean that the book is historically authentic. All myths and magical systems are created by man, sometimes guided by the inspiration given from the Gods. So just because Simon created the version of the Necronomicon we talk about it does not mean that its magic is without power. I disagree about there being overt Lovecraftian tones in the book but that is for another thread, otherwise I agree with you for the most part. I would argue though that the book is (other than Marduk and his 50 powers) more Sumerian than Babylonian, though only stating that for discussions sake has it contains no real meaning per this dialogue. I would however like to point out that Enochian and Kaballa were created by man and are debated and discussed ad naseum. Let us not degenerate (not necessarily you and I but in general the occult community) into avoiding intelligent debate and discussion over the Simon Necronomicon. The system can stand alone on its own merits, and there are certainly enough viewpoints and kernals of information for us to really dig into the system. QUOTE(scorpionis @ May 28 2007, 02:22 PM) With that being said I return to the topic and point out the text on page xviii, xix and xxiii of the introduction chapter. In these pages you can see how the author connects the Chthonic to Kutulu and therefore also Chaos/Tiamat. He identifies Kutulu with Absu and because of that the Man of Kuta becomes, within that context, the male ruler of Chaotic forces. On page xxiii you can read:
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.... I will admit that at first appearances it makes it look that way but in truth the Necronomicon makes it very clear that their connection is only superficial. Let us examine the Lost Bowl of Tiamat, the Dur of Indur. This is, in my opinion, the one of the keys to unlocking the book's potential. I am not advocating making the bowl, but merely a study of what it is. Dur means totality. Remember what totality is? Lets move back a few and remember Crowley's discussion over totality. The abyss is both everything and nothing at the same time, totality. Place the "In" in front of Dur and it creates "Indur," which roughly translates to the abuse of the abyss. The abyss which abuses. It is like a perversion of the abyss. To paraphrase "Lest he wonder the wastelands forever." I say it is like a perversion of the abyss because there is no real way to describe it, it is beyond rationality. Pazuzu can give you life or he can give you death (IMG: style_emoticons/default/hmm.gif) QUOTE(scorpionis @ May 28 2007, 02:22 PM) Pazuzu is not "prince of cup-cakes", no. But he is not of the "generation of the Ancient Ones" either. I agree 100% QUOTE(scorpionis @ May 28 2007, 02:22 PM) I am not saying that these forces are to be played around with. And I am not saying that they do not have very dark/destructive function. What I am saying is that the Ancient Ones are the Forces of Anti-creation (pro-Chaos) and the Underworld gods and spirits are NOT! Agreed, but the Underworld deities, even though Elder Gods, hold the keys to the outside. QUOTE(scorpionis @ May 28 2007, 02:22 PM) Also this talk about having Pazuzu killing people right and left, to be honest I am not sure what I believe about that kind of talk. If you kill through magic the first thing you learn is to keep silent about it. But that is off topic. Agreed QUOTE(scorpionis @ May 28 2007, 02:22 PM) About Persephone and Ereshkigal, you do not see the similarity between the FUNCTION of Nergal/Hades and Ereshkigal/Persephone? But that is not really important in the present discussion. Their function yes, I thought you were saying something else. I would just like to make it clear, and anyone on the forums can support this, I am arguing you for the sake of intelligent dialogue. I am not just arguing with you to be an a$%*#!* or for an ego boost. I enjoy these types of discussions very much so thanks in advance for the dialogue.
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| Darkside099 |
May 29 2007, 01:11 AM
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Unregistered
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[quote name='scorpionis' date='May 28 2007, 04:02 PM' post='30742'] Yes, but you understood what I wanted to point out with my posts about this subject? I pointed out the different places in the necronomicon that incorrectly placed Pazuzu, Ereshkigal and the Underworld Forces at the side of the Ancient Ones. This is what I criticized. By the way I am servant of Lilith within the Qliphotic context, maybe later we can talk about that within the right thread or in private mails. Hail the Dark Goddess! Dear God! Lilith is really someone I stay away from! To me she is dangerous because of certain involvements I had in hell long long time ago. I think I had something for a women that was like a sister to her but she took all bad as jealousy. Lilith is jealous sometimes. (IMG: style_emoticons/default/922.gif) |
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