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 Fate?, Opinion and perspective welcomed...
Myroku
post Jul 12 2007, 10:17 PM
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Greetings Fellow members...
What do you think of Fate? does it exist? is it our choice? or written in stone?

Just Wondering... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

~Myroku

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clips
post Jul 16 2007, 06:41 PM
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What came first the egg or the chicken?
You cant really know, all you can do is make your choices the best you can as they are presented to you. If it was destiny, then whichever choice you make will lead you to the same result and the other choices are mere illusions that make us believe we could do something about the result, and God would be laughing and pointing (at some degree i guess those illusions would make us bring out the noble or darker aspects of human kind, if you think about it, and that would be our only real choice, good way to get to the result or bad way to get there, but at the end you get to the same place). If there is no destiny then you are the person your choices dictated you to be. You are never really gonna know. Its just a perspective of how you view life, like the half empty or half full glass.
Thats what i believe anyhow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)


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TheScarletWhore
post Jul 16 2007, 06:58 PM
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in the tetrabiblos ptolemy says that by using astrology some "fates" can be avoided. Of course the fates you can't avoid have to do with heavier planets and stronger and more complex angles. For example, if you are going through an exact grandcross (4 planets at 90 degrees from each other) you will probably not be able to avoid the outcome, same as with a grandtrine. But if you are faced with a problem represented as a semi-square, or even a weak square and have a release of tension in the form of a connecting trine or a sextile you may be able to avoid the bad aspect of the square (say if mars is squaring the sun, but you also have a jupiter trine with the sun). So, really you have the illusion of freewill but everything seems predetermined.

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clips
post Jul 16 2007, 10:04 PM
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"in the tetrabiblos ptolemy says that by using astrology some "fates" can be avoided."

By referring to "fates" do you mean like outcomes of different situations like if you will fall off a bike? or something more meaningful than that? or either one?

"Of course the fates you can't avoid have to do with heavier planets and stronger and more complex angles. For example, if you are going through an exact grandcross (4 planets at 90 degrees from each other) you will probably not be able to avoid the outcome, same as with a grandtrine."

These type of alignment isn't very usual, or is it? if they aren't does it mean that only once in a while you can avoid some fates?

"But if you are faced with a problem represented as a semi-square, or even a weak square and have a release of tension in the form of a connecting trine or a sextile you may be able to avoid the bad aspect of the square (say if mars is squaring the sun, but you also have a jupiter trine with the sun). So, really you have the illusion of freewill but everything seems predetermined."
What do you mean semi-square, weak square, release of tension in the form of a conecting trine or a sextile? What would be the aspect of the square? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shok.gif)

Could you elaborate more on the whole astrology lingo please, i am not very knowledgeable in astrology. Sorry if i'm turning the whole topic of the original post to astrology, but i think it's relevant to those ignorant in astrology in order to understand the comment made. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)


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Myroku
post Jul 16 2007, 10:29 PM
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Hmmmmm (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hmm.gif) Interesting You guys have very unique views and i like that! well I truly believe that we control our "fate" because Fate is (in my perspective) JUST THE RESULT of choices a person has made. Therefore, Fate interwinds with our choices made upon a ourselves that will consequently end in our "fate". for fate is "flexible" in the sense that we are presented with choices we have to make YET our fate will "bend" or change depending upon the given path we take willingly...

well that's my input! lol

~Myroku

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kouya
post Jul 17 2007, 05:22 AM
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Hmm... why not first try noticing and understanding why is there a "Fate" thoughtform attached to all humans who believe in such fate?

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Myroku
post Jul 17 2007, 11:52 AM
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QUOTE(kouya @ Jul 17 2007, 04:22 AM) *
Hmm... why not first try noticing and understanding why is there a "Fate" thoughtform attached to all humans who believe in such fate?


I believe that all humans seek someform of conclusion and result upon our "life long journey" (literaly(sp?)) and think that fate is just a word of a thought... a thought of attaining some form of conclusion in whiich we all share.... Such as planning things out to end in a specific way; Going to school from a young age until you attain your "fated" Maturity (some sooner or longer than others) and becoming an adult, planning (and saving) for retirement after long years of work. EVERYTHING humans do (from what I know) do things solely for the result or in some sense "fate" or consequence of one or more actions....

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clips
post Jul 17 2007, 12:11 PM
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QUOTE(kouya @ Jul 17 2007, 04:22 AM) *
Hmm... why not first try noticing and understanding why is there a "Fate" thoughtform attached to all humans who believe in such fate?

The same could be said about Death. Why is there a thoughtform such as the reaper attached to that concept. We humans need to better cope with some concepts or ideas of mankind in such a these. I guess it is in order to understand something our mind cannot completely grasp. So we tend to humanize it. Though i dont think i would call fate a thoughtform.


QUOTE
Hmmmmm hmm.gif Interesting You guys have very unique views and i like that! well I truly believe that we control our "fate" because Fate is (in my perspective) JUST THE RESULT of choices a person has made. Therefore, Fate interwinds with our choices made upon a ourselves that will consequently end in our "fate". for fate is "flexible" in the sense that we are presented with choices we have to make YET our fate will "bend" or change depending upon the given path we take willingly...


I like your point of view that fate is somewhat flexible, but do you think we ultimately arrive at a preordained fate?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)


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TheScarletWhore
post Jul 17 2007, 01:01 PM
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[quote name='clips' date='Jul 17 2007, 12:04 AM' post='32245']
"in the tetrabiblos ptolemy says that by using astrology some "fates" can be avoided."

By referring to "fates" do you mean like outcomes of different situations like if you will fall off a bike? or something more meaningful than that? or either one?

---------> Both really, but it seems more likely that you can avoid something like falling off your bike since maybe that will only be represented as say the moon squaring mercury. Since the Moon moves 1 degree every two hours it will clear that 90 degree angle with Mercury fairly quickly. Major things really can't be avoided... for example a friend of mine has his natal Mars and Venus at 23 and 21 degrees Leo respectively, well, for the past year he has been being jerked around by the same chick. In early December of 2006 Saturn made it all the way to 25 degrees Leo before it began to retrograde (at this point he considered the relationship over). By April 20th 2007 Saturn stopped retrograding (going backwards) and began to go direct from 18 Degrees Leo. For June to July of this year Saturn will once again travel between 20-25 degrees Leo, in the process dominating his Venus/Mars conjunction at 21-23 Leo. Thus, Saturn once again began to conjunct his natal (birthchart) Venus/Mars conjunction starting exactly in June, right when this girl came home from college and went back to the job he is still working at that was also the place of their initial meeting. Because of this aspect trouble with his love life absolutely could not be avoided... So, The quicker and "lighter" planets seem like they are easier to work around or even incorporate into your life, while the heavier planets which move slower: mainly Mars, Jupiter and Saturn (and Uranus, Neptune, Pluto; though those are more generational) will cause events that are much harder to avoid. It also depends on what points these alignments are taking place; generally the most sensitive points on a chart without taking into account planetary positions will be the Ascendent (cusp of the 1st and 12th house) the Imum Coeli (cusp of the 3rd and 4th), the Descendent (6th/7th cusp) and the Midhaven (9th/10th house). For my friend, this Saturn Mars/Venus conjunction is taking place in the 7th house, which is the house of Libra: marriage, enemies, partners, "the other", etc.

"Of course the fates you can't avoid have to do with heavier planets and stronger and more complex angles. For example, if you are going through an exact grandcross (4 planets at 90 degrees from each other) you will probably not be able to avoid the outcome, same as with a grandtrine."

These type of alignment isn't very usual, or is it? if they aren't does it mean that only once in a while you can avoid some fates?

---------> Grand Trines, Grand Crosses and Grand Sextiles are rare, but not extremely rare. For example. In my natal birth chart I have my moon at 5 degrees Leo, and Jupiter and Uranus in Sagittarius at 1 and 5 degrees respectively, So whenever a planet passes through the early degrees of Aries I experience a grandtrine. If someone has say a T-Square in their natal chart, meaning they had 3 planets 90 degrees apart from each other at the time of their birth (say Sun at 10 Virgo, Saturn at 10 Pisces, and Jupiter at 10 Sagittarius) then any time a planet passes through 10 degrees Gemini they will undergo a Grandcross... Now say the planet that was passing through 10 Gemini was the Sun, a way that some misery could be avoided would be if one was lucky enough to have Venus or Jupiter trining anyone of the planets in the Grandcross... by this way tension would be released. Think of a wooden box with four 90 walls, you press on it with your foot and there is no where for the force to go but into the hard right angle joints, if you have another release point of say 60 or 120 degrees you can syphon off some of the hard energy. It is the same principle as a pointed roof on a house.

"But if you are faced with a problem represented as a semi-square, or even a weak square and have a release of tension in the form of a connecting trine or a sextile you may be able to avoid the bad aspect of the square (say if mars is squaring the sun, but you also have a jupiter trine with the sun). So, really you have the illusion of freewill but everything seems predetermined."

What do you mean semi-square, weak square, release of tension in the form of a conecting trine or a sextile? What would be the aspect of the square? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shok.gif)

Could you elaborate more on the whole astrology lingo please, i am not very knowledgeable in astrology. Sorry if i'm turning the whole topic of the original post to astrology, but i think it's relevant to those ignorant in astrology in order to understand the comment made. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

----------> Semi-square is a 45 degree angle, a Weak Square would be an 85 or 95 degree angle (not a perfect 90 degrees), a connecting trine or sextile. The zodiac is based on 360 degrees, there are 12 signs and each one has 30 degrees of the circle. There are 3 different "qualities" of signs, Cardinals: Aries, Cancer, Libra, Capricorn (creators of energy), Fixed: Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius (maintainors of energy), Mutables: Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius, Pisces (changers and enders of energy), each one of these three sets of 4 signs lay in a cross pattern from each other (for example aries is 90 degrees from cancer is 90 degrees from libra is 90 degrees from capricorn). There are also four different elements each possessing three signs: Fire: Aries, Leo, Sagittarius. Earth: Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn. Air: Gemini, Libra, Aquarius. Water: Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces. each of these elemental triplicities lay 120 degrees from each other, in triangular formation... So what I mean by a connecting trine to a Square would be say you have the Sun in Capricorn and the Moon in Libra. Here the Sun in Capricorn is forming a square with the Moon in Libra. This would be a hard 90 degree angle. Say Venus is Taurus - it would form a trine the Sun in Capricorn that is also squaring Libra. Thus, it is hoped that the negative energy that is being formed by the conflicting energies of Capricorn Sun and Libra Moon could be diverted into the positive outlet of Sun in Capricorn trine Venus in Taurus... It would help a lot of it drew it out on a chart and posted it.

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clips
post Jul 17 2007, 02:09 PM
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Thanks for elaborating Scarlet. It's very interesting point of view, and it seems like a complex science i would very much be interested if you would recommend me some books for further reading. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


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TheScarletWhore
post Jul 17 2007, 02:40 PM
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QUOTE(clips @ Jul 17 2007, 04:09 PM) *
Thanks for elaborating Scarlet. It's very interesting point of view, and it seems like a complex science i would very much be interested if you would recommend me some books for further reading. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Yes! Astrology is an extremely complex science... and of the greatest assistance when it comes to all occult matters (when to a ritual or spell should take place) and even mundane decision making. I would recommend highly the Astrological Textbook series by Alan Leo, an English astrologer from the former half of the 20th century. A couple older books I find useful are the Tetrabiblos by Ptolemy and Christian Astrology by William Lily. For "mundane astrology" (which is the astrology of politics, nation states and world historical events: one of my favorite subjects) There is a "World Horoscopes" book by Nicholas Campion, which has the natal chart of every modern nation state in it, plus other cool charts like for the formation of Rome. Another good beginner's book is called "Parker's Astrology". I would also suggest www.astro.com, which allows you to generate free charts (in the 'my astro') section. And alsohttp://www.astrology-numerology.com/

Also, what I have found to be the best method for knowing the unfolding of events: charts for the exact times of new moons, full moons, ingresses, solstices and equinoxes should be cast.

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