Raising And/or Animating The Dead Options

I'm wasn't sure if I should have put this here in Esoteric Discussions, Left Hand Path, or in the Ceremonial Magick forums so I put it here.

Ressurection can be performed by a few Christian evangelists today, but is there an occult way to do it? Also, what about animation? what Hollywood enjoys calling "zombies." I don't care how light, dark, good, or evil the magick is. I want to know if it is possible to do it, whether for kicks, servitors, or just saying "I can," or if it's simply fantasy. And I'm not talking about Necromancy, as that is just summoning the spirits of the deceased to acquire information. I'm talking about bodies on the physical plane getting up and walking. Could a spirit be channeled into a dead body to possess and use it as a vessel?

Basically I wan't to know two things:

1. Can someone be brought back to life (truly alive) by occult means.

2. Is it possible to animate the dead (dead but moving).

Where have you heard that some christian evangelists can resurrect people? I have never heard of a confirmed case of resurrection, just some biblical stories which may or may not be true...

Which isn't to say that I don't believe it's possible. Theoretically, it is - depending on the state of the body. I think it's a rare circumstance that will allow for a body to be brought back to life in a real way - the organs must still be intact, and the body would have to be recently deceased. However, death is the result of a severing of the connection between body, mind, and spirit. An adept could, I believe, reconstitute that connection between the parts, and bring a person back to life, though what kind of life is a harder question.

Actual, reanimated corpses, i.e., zombie like beings, are right out. Magick only appears to be supernatural, it doesn't really operate outside universal law, just outside scientifically accepted laws. A body still has to be able to function, and if the process of decay has already begun, it's doubtful that the body would have any activity regardless of what spirit you put in there. Now, using a body for some kind of necromantic divination via the invocation of a spirit into the corpse, may be another story, but i'm not versed in necromancy proper so I hesitate to speculate - just heard a few things here and there.

If there had been a case of resurrection, you can bet that the world would have jumped on it - most cases of 'resurrection' are a matter of the resuscitation of people not-quite-dead, rather than truly dead individuals, and are debunked as such. Now, whether that's actually the case or just how it was discredited is harder to say without being there, but given the mechanics and the exceedingly rare capability to do so, i'm inclined to believe that it's more likely a mistaken case of death than a genuine resurrection.

peace

Greetings!

Oddly enough I recently watched a program on the discovery channel about zombies.

What they said was that there was a specific potion type concoction (mostly ground herbs of which they could not mention all of) that would "reanimate" a corpse and the corpse could be used for personal uses.

But mostly what was going on was that the thing was used on living people, to put them in that "zombie" state, where they could be controlled.

Now, as for bringing the dead to life, back to the way they were before they died... I think it is possible... it would require a ton of power. And now I have been thinking of how it would be done.

Sure calling spirits is somewhat simple, but making that connection with the body again? I am not sure how it would be done.

Though I would love/ be terrified to see it done. Or better yet do it.

Peace.

Here you go - http://www.unbelief.org/articles/raise_the_dead.html

Christians love to raise the dead - over the past thirty years or so, it's become something of a party trick. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Seriously though, why would you want to raise the dead? Approximately 72 hours after the consciousness has been severed from the body, it is in a far more interesting place in most cases.

There is a natural order to existence, and there are too many people on this rock already - we don't need those already departed coming back to take up space again.

peace

Not really a party trick. I'll admit there are far more frauds regarding resurrection than real ones, but that doesn't automatically mean the real ones don't exist, just as stage magicians don't discount what you and I practice.

http://www.cephasministry.com/world_church...ection_man.html

Skip all the Biblical refferences if you like (that's what I did) but read the story. A pastor was in a car accident and suffered sever brain and chest damage. Shortly after, he was pronounced dead. For TWO DAYS he was in the mortuary and his body injected with embalming fluid. Doctors were there at his death. The mortician did a full autopsy and filled out his death certificate.

His wife, however, had his body transferred to their church after this. There they prayed, layed hands on him, and he began breathing again. His brain and chest damage was healed and he got out of the casket. He's alive to this day and sometimes likes to show off his death certificate, humorously earning him the title "Resurrection Man".

No one, no one, could survive two days in a frozen locker that is a mortuary and a full autopsy (where they cut a "T" into the torso, remove each organ and weigh it one at a time, cut open the throat and analyze the larynx and pharynx, etc). The guy was dead. Croaked. Canned. And now he lives, with full medical documentation. Such power! I want this for myself, but I don't want to go through the 30+ years of faith-building to maybe get a chance at doing it. Doing it via the occult would be much more efficient.

A: Africa in general is a nation rife with the sort of legal laxness that would allow for all supporting documentation to be faked.
B: That website is a ministry website, not a scientific journal. They have a stake in the story. They didn't name any names other than the man raised from the dead, and other ministers. Give me a doctor to contact who can confirm this man was dead in the first place.

As for occult power - who says it doesn't take 30+ years of work? Don't be deceived into thinking the occult is any sort of 'quick path' to power. Expect it to take your whole life, dedicate your whole life to it, or get out of the ring - attaining adepthood takes a long time, or tremendous talent, the kind you have to bring with you from your past life; and that kind of talent is usually manifested as an unshaking dedication to perfection.

Otherwise settle for the minor uses of the will endowed to every other human being. True occult power is a rare find these days, because in general we are a lazy people when it comes to such endeavors. There are even fewer gurus on India, fewer monks in temples, fewer nuns in church. Becoming an Adept requires no less dedication, though of a different sort.

Don't even concern yourself with that kind of power - just dedicate each day to learning yourself, to strengthening your will, to expanding the boundaries of what you think is possible (while still avoiding the fraud - you would not have to hear about a resurrection from the internet, and the doctor who signed the death certificate would be confirming it from one side of the globe to the other), and to occult exercise. If you just focus day by day, the time will pass in no time at all, and you'll be doing things you never imagined you really could.

I wouldn't take this resurrection man so seriously, to get back on topic - it's alarmingly common for religious fundamentalists of one flag or another to make such wild claims in order to draw people to their ministry. Happens all the time everywhere, that's what evangelism is about.

peace

The most difficult part would be managing to find the soul you are looking for.

There are many a tricksters who would love to play the part and get a new body.

Actually.. it is nearly impossible to ensure that it is the actual individual consciousness of the deceased.
So, even if you did find the soul it would not necessarily be the person you recall.

The most difficult part would be managing to find the soul you are looking for.

I'd have to say the most difficult part would be putting it back together with a body.

Finding a soul not as hard as it sounds, if you knew the person and have their body with you. It's a resonance thing your body and soul go together like puzzle pieces - not just anyone can be possessed by any entity, and not all souls are equal in the relative sense.

peace

More, your experiences and body are like puzzle pieces.

Which are attached to the self.

The self not being the soul.

The soul has not attachment to physical form.

EDIT:
One cannot speak of souls relatively.
Only their development manifestation wise.

This post has been edited by Uni_Verse: Aug 16 2007, 12:00 AM

More, your experiences and body are like puzzle pieces.

Which are attached to the self.

The self not being the soul.

The soul has not attachment to physical form.

EDIT:
One cannot speak of souls relatively.
Only their development manifestation wise.

I'm going to try and make this relevant to the topic at hand, if it doesn't turn out that way i'll split it into a different thread.

The first person perspective is rooted in the soul. It is expressed through consciousness. So, the self is the soul. Not the individual 'me', but the "I" or "I am". THe soul contains the essence of experiences, their energy, while the consciousness contains their manifestation. Consciousness is transitory and impermanent in most situations, although a strong and developed consciousness that has been expanded beyond the physical and mental bodies can survive without physical being. This is ascension in its most basic form.

The soul doesn't have an attachment to the physical form, you're right about that, however, you're not looking at it from the right angle. Your soul contains your karma, this is what it means to say the 'essence of experience'. The soul contains the resonance from the experiences you've gone through - including the experience of the physical body, i.e., body memories, things that happened to you, injuries, illnesses, etc. Because of the presence of this resonance, only your soul can be safely paired with your body. Put another soul in there, and the imbalance between the karma that shaped your body and the karma of the other soul, will cause sickness and probably death. People who are possessed are often described as developing sores and rashes and all manner of other nasty looking afflictions - this is why. Demons have awful karma that destroys the body.

Everything can be - and must be, in my opinion - spoken of both relatively and absolutely. Absolute is the perspective of the Highest Mind, the Highest Body, the Highest soul - the Origin, the All. There are individual souls. They are relatively individual - that is, on the level that they operate, there are individual souls. Step up a level from that and there still individual souls made up of lower souls, and so on up the ladder. Think of the body - there are cells, which make up tissue, which make up organs, which make up systems, which ultimately form a body together. Anatomy 101 - the law of correspondence tells us that we can take that model and abstract it to a different degree to understand the other systems of creation. The mind is the same way, small systems that make up bigger systems. So is the soul and it's relationship to the higher planes of it's existence. Of course in the Absolute sense, there is no individuality, body mind or soul. It's all part of the All.

When I say that the consciousness contains the manifested experience, I mean memories as we typically know them. The soul contains the patterns of energy experienced, which can be manifested any number of ways - there are fewer energy patterns than there are physical manifestations. The consciousness contains the actual manifestation of that energy pattern that was experienced, and we call these memories, experiences, etc. Really, those manifestations are transitory and impermanent like the consciousness itself typically is.

Further, the soul expresses itself through consciousness as a beam of light through a lense. One's consciousness is developed around the Soul. At first, then, any old soul will do, and up to a certain point this is true. Soon enough though, that window is closed, the soul is enmeshed in the physical existence through the various trappings of experience and the perceived length of time between birth and the present. At this point the spiritually inclined individual with an advanced soul naturally begins the process of liberating himself from the physical, and possibly mental, bodies. I say possibly, because some souls are advanced enough to take that mental body with them, some are not.

So when you decide to raise someone from the dead, the consciousness is not enough, and you cannot simply craft a new soul for the resurrected person. Their consciousness may cause them to appear as though they are the same person, but it would not be. Their karma would be different, they would travel down a different path than before. You should not be fooled by the presence of consciousness that is familiar, because that is not the self. The Soul is the Self, the essence of the individual. The consciousness would soon change to reflect the 'ray' of the soul behind it, and would be a very different person.

Now a soul with a similar resonance could work, without killing the host body, perhaps. THe same issues of consciousness would exist though, and the energy patterns that don't line up right would cause mental illness just as the energy patterns of physical illnesses, etc., would cause damage to the body. The soul is the receptacle of karma, and the consciousness and body are manifestations of that karma.

A body and consciousness with no soul, is an empty thing - it will act like an individual, but it is like an individual on a loop. They will seek no new experiences, they will not answer questions about their existence, they will be restricted only to what they have already experienced and no more. THey will be mechanical and dull, possessed of no creativity or intuition. It is the soul that makes consciousness special.

When it comes to finding a soul, as I said it's not as hard as you'd think. Think of someone you know. THey have a feeling to you - strip away the memories, the image, all bias and judgement for or against them, down the the very essence of their 'feeling'. That is your connection to that person's soul. Only one person will give you that feeling specifically. The better your 'eyesight' as it were, the more honed your sense of such things, the more obviously individual it will be. Other people you meet may give you a similar feeling, this is harmonic resonance, and we often group them together in our mind because it's one of the list of things we don't pay attention to. One person just feels like another. However, it's completely unique in all of existence, because it reflects the exact path of karma, experienced energy patterns, that soul has built up. This is the case of average individuals, ascended individuals who have cleansed all karma on this level have a karma which is too subtle to recognize - it appears to a lower individual to be a purified individual who evokes only a sense of profoundness and light. Even then, two ascended beings may feel different in the mode of that profoundness.

There are many ways to go about it - you can simply expand your consciousness into the higher worlds and call for that soul using it's resonance; you can appeal to a higher soul, through your own higher self, to find the soul and deliver it to you; you can travel astrally to the soul's location and bring it back 'manually'; you can create a resonance that will attract the soul inherently. Many ways to 'skin a cat' as it were, though in this case it's like putting the cat back in it's skin.

So hard, yes, not as hard as it sounds. We could say there is some philosophical debate about what exactly a soul is, but really that's just arrogant. The ancients have left plenty of descriptions of the soul, consciousness, and their relationship to the body. They also said plenty about resurrection. So many different cultures with the same descriptions can't be coincidence, and for that matter once you see it four yourself you understand what they meant. Learning about it isn't an excuse not to experience it for yourself, but not learning about it isn't really license to come up with another explanation.

peace

The self is your current experiences in the karmic cycle.

Your soul has had many selves, each separate and distinct (through experience).

Or do you assume that the soul is living the same life over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over?

To say that, would then be to deny individuality.

Of course, relatively speaking... there is no difference between life and death.
So one cannot really bring something "back" to life. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The self is your current experiences in the karmic cycle.

Your soul has had many selves, each separate and distinct (through experience).

Or do you assume that the soul is living the same life over and over ... and over?

To say that, would then be to deny individuality.

Of course, relatively speaking... there is no difference between life and death.
So one cannot really bring something "back" to life. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You seem to be speaking of the Ego as the self. The ego is a composite effect, an illusion of dimensions. It cannot be the self because the self is enduring. Individuality exists only in the relative sense. In the absolute sense, I deny it completely. There is only one consciousness, one body, and one soul, aspects of one unified originator, and we are it's parts. We perceive ourselves as individuals because of the illusion of the Ego. That does not mean that the individuated state of reality is ephemeral - it is real to us and operates as though it were real, until it is transcended.

Are you the same person as you were when you were born? Are you the same as you were at ten, fifteen? The change in who you are as you grow reflects the the same process which, though to a greater degree, your soul goes through from life to life. Of course you aren't living the same life over and over again - no more than you are repeating your childhood as we speak. You grew and evolved, and learned to live in the world differently, now aware of higher laws than you understood as a child. The growth and evolution of a soul is the same concept to greater degree.

To consider your self 'your current experiences in the karmic cycle' is to greatly oversimplify the individual. I am not speaking of the small self, but the True Self, the origin of your perspective. I'm not talking about personality, I'm talking about the point of view, the awareness, the individual, not the vehicle. The vehicle is not the self - it's the vehicle; the ego, the body, the consciousness.

In one way you are right, but not in the way you mean it. Like I said before, the soul contains the pattern of your karma. So yes, you are your karmic experiences in a sense, but the karmic experience is a quality of the soul, not it's absolute being. It's being holds that karma.

Saying there is no difference between life and death is like saying there is no difference between cold water and hot water. Of course there is a difference - same substance, sure, but different conditions.

peace

No, I do not speak of the Self as the Ego.

The Ego is baser still than the Self.


Either way... bit more on topic. As it is beginning to biol down to semantics.

A problem I have with others as well - I has a tendency to write in verse (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You stated earlier...

It's a resonance thing

When you seek this resonance, how do you know this resonance is the original soul and not one your mind has simply recreated for your own use?

Ah, I thought of a good way to put it...


Upon the sphere of Earth is the Ego.
That which is us, as concerned with the Physical World

Upon the sphere of the Moon is the Self
The reflection of our soul, but not our actual soul.
This reflection derived from experiences on Earth through the Ego

Upon the sphere of the Sun is the Angel / Higher Self / Redemption
This is the message from God that created us.
The Logos of the Self

Upon the sphere of the Stars is the Soul
God where,
There is no difference,
One is All and All is One

So do we all agree that we can raise the dead or is that still out for debate?

The question I really want to ask is, do you think its possible to raise someone who has had an instantaneous death, like an electric shock, heart attack and is not limited to... shanking, shooting, car accident, getting Prued into a bath tub etc. Like not a couple of days later resurrection, like if you witness it right then and right there could you act?

I believe that to be the most likely form of resurrection, actually, yes. And, I'd have to say that I agree resurrection is possible. however, I do also believe it to be somewhat conditional, depending on one's level of magickal maturity. An ascended being may be able to raise anyone from the dead. An adept my need a body relatively fresh.

peace

Reinhard Bonke... a penticostal christian I think was bragging about raising some dead guy in Nigeria.... in a fire conference...
The guy conffirmed... a saw a movie (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) I know not a very reliable source, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt: NO, not I doubt he did it! but I doubt that is a fake resurection!

Worth looking in to it... for resurection fans!

And out of curiosity, how much energy do you think would have to be used in order to revive a heart failure?


BREAK!!!!!!

Before you answer, think about:
what kind of energy?
what plane you would draw it from if not from yourself?
would you have enough time to get it from some big complicated source?
would it be simpler to just take one for the team and use your own energy and suffer a hardcore burn out?
how much time do you think it would consume?

Before you answer, think about:
what kind of energy?
what plane you would draw it from if not from yourself?
would you have enough time to get it from some big complicated source?
would it be simpler to just take one for the team and use your own energy and suffer a hardcore burn out?
how much time do you think it would consume?

There's not a reliable physical way to measure the answers to those questions. It's not so much about supplying energy, as it is about fixing an imablance if you get to it quick - after that it's about re-establishing links between the bodies. The body takes care of itself on it's own fuel in the first instance, and in the second, there is energy required, but not a form of energy which has a standard unit of measurement. more than the novice is capable of applying in one instant with no preparation. With? If he/she is very talented. For the adept, the amount of energy is not only negligible, but not the point. The source of the energy is elemental in nature, electromagnetic in particular, that having it's definition as much wider a spectrum along the EM axis than say, electricity or magnetism. That is, both of those things, but also the higher grade of those energies which is too subtle to be measured as yet by instruments of science.

IN a sense, the adept is using his own energy, having developed a natural access to a deeper source of energy in his being than the novice. For the Adept, perhaps instantly, perhaps momentarily. For the less developed but still capable practitioner - that depends on a lot of things, namely his focus in the moment of the action, his familiarity with the necessary energies, and his true will to apply the energy towards the resurrection.

peace

lol you are on a role this week, I agree science does take a while to catch up with us. But I'm sure in like year 2045 or something there will be some instrument that even measures will. If they can map most of the genome then I'm sure they'll be able to pick up prana (or what ever other types of energy).

**Huggles**