Magikal Circle Creation On A Wooden Floor Options

What would you reccommend to draw a magical circle on a wooden floor that will wash off easy?????


will chalk do the trick?? or watercolors???

What would you reccommend to draw a magical circle on a wooden floor that will wash off easy?????
will chalk do the trick?? or watercolors???

If you're worried about ruining your floor, why not use candles to mark the edges of your circle?

Dear 'norrinradd,'

From the Old System Magic perspective, I strongly advise against drawing your Circle of the Art on a wood or textile floor. It must be drawn upon the earth or a on concrete floor laid directly upon the earth. If an evocation to physical manifestation is conducted CORRECTLY, there will be a MAJOR difference of results between conducting it on the ground than on the upper floor of an appartment building. In the matter of degree, the spirit that will appear in the smoke of the Perfume of the Art will appear so real that you will think it is another physical being you are conversing with. The reason is because the earth stabalizes the whole operation and the instability of the spirit works against them (Ceremonial Magic and the Power of Evocation, Lisiewski, pp. 116-117). In this work it is all or nothing--if you cannot find a place to conduct your Magic--tough luck! This is NOT the new age where so-called 'magicians' do whatever they want or feel like based on their 'feelings.' You are dealing with very percise laws in REAL Magic that you CANNOT get around. If you try, you will not only fail miserably, but never and I repeat NEVER get the FULL results that you are after. If you don't believe me, then read the posts on this forum where many disgruntled individuals try to give reasons (veiled excuses) for their 'partial results of no significant consequence' or their failures.

As for the chalk: it must be white, and blessed by a Catholic priest. Don't be like the new agers here who will tell you, 'water colors will be alright dude, plus they'll look pretty' or 'just get like some used chalk or something.' No. You must go out and start to build your subjective synthesis and add the EFFICACY to your work. By performing this task you will imprint something powerful in your subconscious mind, and add at the same time the sacerdotal office or quality to the item obtained. You cannot fail if these gradual processes are aligned correctly. Dealing these with entities is NO joke and is indeed dangerous--I WILL NOT bend my thinking here to please 'the masses' or ANYONE in this forum. Based on EXPERIENCE I know how these things work. In fact, I was once contacted by a man on this forum who wanted to casually work with demons in his UPPER room--he underwent massive psychological problems after my CRYSTAL CLEAR instructions to not 'do as you please.' Naturally, he had no control over the spirit and it never appeared like a real physical being to him. He 'changed' EVERYTHING around by mixing and matching Magical systems and did as he 'pleased' (he later confessed what a mistake he had made when he emailed). For all I know, he could be in a psychological ward as I write this post because I never heard from him again.

If I had to tell you anything, it would be to go to 8thmatrixpress.com and get away from this 'new age' miasma while you still can. It will merit you NOTHING and all your 'work' will be for naught.

Most Sincerely,

Mr. Curi

Ah, I imagine any holy man of your chosen religious persuasion will suffice. If you are not catholic, then the blessing of a catholic priest is worthless. Also, the holy man must be genuine - plenty of priests and other holy men are not up to standard. A Rabbi or Guru or some such should suffice as well as a priest. Catholicism is no more the one true religion of G-D than any other religion.

I'd like to see Bym's suggestion on this, his is an opinion I trust. As for me, I've never cared to accomplish physical evocation just yet, waiting for the time I can build a proper room, although I have to agree that it should be done on the ground - not from experience, but rather simply from the observance than any magick of manifestation seems to work better when done with one's feet in contact with the earth.

peace

This is once again a part of the new age miasma that is controlling the so-called 'magical world' as we know it today--and I ask you all to take this into account. No, sir, you may NOT make up your own rules in Old System Magic--I speak to you from EXPERIENCE. You would be mixing systems once again--THIS is NOT permitted in this work. If, for example, you are working from the Heptameron (a Magical ritual with CATHOLIC elements)--you obtain that blessed chalk from a CATHOLIC priest! That's it. There are no more discussions. Otherwise, you are introducing duality and DOUBT into the operation. Though there is no 'recipe' for an evocation and every magician is 'different' what has been written has been written. The laws of Magic are NOT up to your 'feelings' or 'emotions.' You are misguided here on ALL counts. In this work, certain rules are layed out, filled with traps, but all is there. OBEY THE RULES! There is absolutely no 'picking and choosing' what you desire. If you want the full-scale RESULTS that is what you do. So many have realized FROM THIS FORUM that they failed for NOT doing as the Grimoires said. If the grimoire asks for the "blood of a cock that never trod hen" and you bring in your dogs blood into the operation, you are breaking the rules, young man and will achieve a partial result AT BEST (is this what you are REALLY after--ask yourself) 'slingshot effects,' or NOTHING at all!

Most Sincerely,

Mr. Curi

This is once again a part of the new age miasma that is controlling the so-called 'magical world' as we know it today--and I ask you all to take this into account. No, sir, you may NOT make up your own rules in Old System Magic--I speak to you from EXPERIENCE.

Mr Curi, I respect and applaud your experience with Old System Magic, I'm sure it has served you well, and that you've gone far with it. However, Norrinradd made no mention of the system of magick he was working with. Evocation may be an old art, but there are many ways to accomplish it.

You would be mixing systems once again--THIS is NOT permitted in this work. If, for example, you are working from the Heptameron (a Magical ritual with CATHOLIC elements)--you obtain that blessed chalk from a CATHOLIC priest! That's it. There are no more discussions. Otherwise, you are introducing duality and DOUBT into the operation.

Only from the perspective of a person of such a specific religious discrimination that they prefer to work within a religious system that they are at home with. if you were, for instance, luciferian, then chalk blessed by a catholic priest would be at odds. Again, you make the assumption somewhere, that Norrinradd is working from the Heptameron, apparently. If you're suggesting not to mix systems, then logically you ought to have asked what system our friend here was working with. It may be a system drawn together of his own making. While the laws of magick are immutable, there are many ways to enact them - you seems to believe that magickal law is dogmatic, while it in fact is not. The Dogma is only based on magical law - a set of actions and symbols which set those laws into motion. The laws of magick are not catholic in origin, nor do they originate with any religious dogma of mankind.

Though there is no 'recipe' for an evocation and every magician is 'different' what has been written has been written. The laws of Magic are NOT up to your 'feelings' or 'emotions.' You are misguided here on ALL counts. In this work, certain rules are layed out, filled with traps, but all is there. OBEY THE RULES! There is absolutely no 'picking and choosing' what you desire. If you want the full-scale RESULTS that is what you do. So many have realized FROM THIS FORUM that they failed for NOT doing as the Grimoires said. If the grimoire asks for the "blood of a cock that never trod hen" and you bring in your dogs blood into the operation, you are breaking the rules, young man and will achieve a partial result AT BEST (is this what you are REALLY after--ask yourself) 'slingshot effects,' or NOTHING at all!

My grasp of magickal law is quite thorough, thank you, and the role of the holy man - if the magician is not himself an ordained holy man of some faith - is representative of the quintessential As Above, So Below, representing the blessing of the Source, God, itself. If you are not catholic, frankly you ought to work with a magickal system within your own religious views, if you have them. While i have never sought anything but knowledge and very subtle help with causality from spirits, my experience has shown me that the Law itself is more important than the way it is enacted. It depends on where the faith of the individual lies - the the Law, or with some Dogma representing at best only a fraction of it in the first place.

Don't assume everyone is working by your system, or that yours is the only one that works. Magickal Law is the only constant throughout all human culture, and there are often slight variances as to the interpretation of that Law - however, the Dogma by which that Law is utilized and meted out among cultures, is radically different from region to region, and as you say, there is no one 'recipe' for evocation. You don't even have to follow a grimoire if you choose not to, and trial and error will - to the brave and hopefully properly prepared student - yield in time results just as well as any classical grimoire. You seem to be under the impression that these books have existed since the dawn of time, and that only be following one of them can you practice evocation. By all means correct me if I misinterpret your fanaticism.

The individual student's firm grasp of Magickal Law is all that is need to properly enact any and all acts of magick. According to that law, any blessed object, which the initiate recognizes and accepts the authority behind - including, for the hermetic student who follows the Law alone and merely recognizes the presence of the Law in religious Dogma, the blessing of any initiated holy man - is sufficient for any ritual requiring such an object.

Hence:

Ah, I imagine any holy man of your chosen religious persuasion will suffice. If you are not catholic, then the blessing of a catholic priest is worthless. Also, the holy man must be genuine - plenty of priests and other holy men are not up to standard. A Rabbi or Guru or some such should suffice as well as a priest. Catholicism is no more the one true religion of G-D than any other religion.

So stated because I make no assumptions about what system of magick Norrinradd is working with, or what his religious preference is. As I said above, let me repeat - if religious dogma is important to you, you should work with a system that is in line with your own religious preferences in the first place. If it is not important to you, then you are either relatively agnostic, with little religious focus in the first place, or simply a person who relies on a more personal connection with the divine - and in those cases, sometimes following the instructions will pan out, and sometimes it won't - then work with whatever grimoire you choose and follow the instructions. Atheist's simply don't believe in such things and besides - If you have no personal connection to a God, how can you expect to wield his authority to summon and command spirits?

So I'll appreciate it - as a fellow human being as well as a Moderator of this forum - if you will put a bit more thought into what you write here, and respond accordingly to what you read, with no assumptions made if at all possible. And when you do respond, I'll appreciate just a hint of respect, Sir, as you are not the only person to have successfully executed a magickal act and gotten results.

Most Sincerely,

Vagrant

I'd use salt. But if you don't feel that you can consencrate it yourself you can also seek the help of a holy person.

Here is what I intended to write and indeed wrote (but was misinterpreted):

1. An operator must always obey and follow the rules from the Grammar of Magic from which he is working (no matter if he individual likes or dislikes them).

2. IF the operator is working from the Heptameron, he should obtain blessed chalk from a Catholic Church for the Circle of the Art since this is one of the requirements for it (and thus, cannot substitute it for any other material). Please read carefully next time young man, I wrote this only to serve as an example.

3. No, there is no other way to accomplish an evocation to physical manifestation and obtain the full results promised if one does not adhere to the ancient systems of practicing magic. You understood me quite well here, moderator. This is not 'fanaticism' as you say. It is fact and the indisputable truth. No theory from your arm chair or that of any other in this forum or elsewhere will be able to defeat what I, and many others here have tested after many years and researched extensively. Those who turned to Old System Magic can attest to its pure might. They can also tell you how utterly destructive New Age fad Magic really is physically, psychologically, and spiritually. Those who work from the sacred texts can only complete an evocation on his or her terms (this is where the 'no recipe' portion comes in) IF the rules are adhered to and a proper subjective synthesis is built FIRST. And once again, yes, this form of Magic does work properly and is most recommended by me and my fellow collegues as being a CONSISTENT and RELIABLE source of results with the least amount of 'trouble' if the rules are obeyed. 'Making up' your own evocation just because you 'feel' good or 'right' about it and mixing systems will give you what essentially most new agers are after whether they admit it or not--nothing at all. Not to few have emailed me through this forum describing their story. I sympathaize with them because I endured the same thing for following the advice of 'theorists' with no real experience in this field--and with hardly enough results upon which I could 'hang my hat.'

4. The laws of Magic are like gravity and does not discriminate. Those who recognize the law but do not apply the proper principles in a working, are merely saying "Lord, Lord." No problem here--your resullts will always be partial or none at all. The amount of 'slingshot effects' people have received for tampering with this system and 'making it their own' as if they knew what ithey were doing is really just beyond me. The laws work if one applies them correctly and they do not if they don't. Trial and error is all a part of 'experimental magic' which I will not even begin to get into now. Suffice it to say that it is only after the apprehension of Magic that it would be most safe engage in this stage--never before. Here, I can teach you from real-world experience.

5. I cannot anticipate what bizzare conclusions others will come to based on what I write here. Therefore, none of my posts will be 'perfect' but I will make an effort to address the issue more specifically. And no, I am not the only person on this website to have attained results, I speak to the masses of men and women looking for answers. All I can say for now is that it has been my experience that Old System Magic has NEVER failed me or any of my collegues--EVER. I am trying to show my point of view so that others may come the the realization of what is really going in this so-called magical community of the current era.

Here is what I intended to write and indeed wrote (but was misinterpreted):

1. An operator must always obey and follow the rules from the Grammar of Magic from which he is working (no matter if he individual likes or dislikes them).

2. IF the operator is working from the Heptameron, he should obtain blessed chalk from a Catholic Church for the Circle of the Art since this is one of the requirements for it (and thus, cannot substitute it for any other material). Please read carefully next time young man, I wrote this only to serve as an example.

From the Old System Magic perspective, I strongly advise ....... As for the chalk: it must be white, and blessed by a Catholic priest. Don't be like the new agers here who will tell you, 'water colors will be alright dude, plus they'll look pretty' or 'just get like some used chalk or something.' No. You must go out and start to build your subjective synthesis and add the EFFICACY to your work. By performing this task you will imprint something powerful in your subconscious mind, and add at the same time the sacerdotal office or quality to the item obtained.

You were not misinterpreted, you spoke rather plainly and interpretation was very clear. You mentioned "Old System Magic Perspective", then stated implicitly, with no reference to the heptameron, that "it must be white, and blessed by a Catholic priest" as concerns the chalk. Your memory and perception powers leave me in doubt as to the competency of your magickal development. I would expect more cunning from someone so sure of themselves, and sure of their education and experience.

3. No, there is no other way to accomplish an evocation to physical manifestation and obtain the full results promised if one does not adhere to the ancient systems of practicing magic. You understood me quite well here, moderator. This is not 'fanaticism' as you say. It is fact and the indisputable truth. No theory from your arm chair or that of any other in this forum or elsewhere will be able to defeat what I, and many others here have tested after many years and researched extensively. Those who turned to Old System Magic can attest to its pure might. They can also tell you how utterly destructive New Age fad Magic really is physically, psychologically, and spiritually. Those who work from the sacred texts can only complete an evocation on his or her terms (this is where the 'no recipe' portion comes in) IF the rules are adhered to and a proper subjective synthesis is built FIRST. And once again, yes, this form of Magic does work properly and is most recommended by me and my fellow collegues as being a CONSISTENT and RELIABLE source of results with the least amount of 'trouble' if the rules are obeyed. 'Making up' your own evocation just because you 'feel' good or 'right' about it and mixing systems will give you what essentially most new agers are after whether they admit it or not--nothing at all. Not to few have emailed me through this forum describing their story. I sympathaize with them because I endured the same thing for following the advice of 'theorists' with no real experience in this field--and with hardly enough results upon which I could 'hang my hat.'

You are able to offer no proof of your magickal development or success on this forum any more than I can offer to you. So the next time you call myself, or anyone else, an armchair magician, implied or directly, action will be taken. If you'd like to send your ghoulies after me to teach me a lesson, and I am unable to defend myself, then I will accept your status as 'better than'. Thus far you have not demonstrated anything more than academic knowledge yourself - you have demonstrated no depth of experiential understanding in the Law, or justified your claims any more than to say that your experience proves that it works. You might have followed bad advice in the past, regarding this field of evocation (though whether you reference 'old system' or simply the general field of evocation, is unclear) or perhaps you are one who simply needs a solid and completely worked out system in order to connect to the foreign spheres. You seem to imply that experimentation outside those boundaries will result in nothing, however, by implying that you may only do such magick according to these so called ancient texts. So, I can only conclude that your experiments have failed, if you have made them. Anyone can quote the text from a book.

In the same text from point 2, you actually hit on the point of contention straight on with "You must go out and start to build your subjective synthesis and add the EFFICACY to your work. By performing this task you will imprint something powerful in your subconscious mind, and add at the same time the sacerdotal office or quality to the item obtained." And then later seem to dispute the place of subjectivity in the magickal operation, while still acknowledging that not just the Heptameron is acceptable as a grimoire to follow. If more than one book will work, each with a different set of symbols, procedures, with only the very barest skeletons of process in common, what prevents the modern magician from building a system from the synthesis of said skeleton? Are the secret names of spirits and entities recorded in those books the limits of the firmament and beyond? Can no other names be deduced, divined, or granted from on high? Can the modern man only ever lack the inspiration and genius of the ancient magi who penned those 'ancient' books?

You, Sir, suggest by your words: "No, there is no other way to accomplish an evocation to physical manifestation and obtain the full results promised if one does not adhere to the ancient systems of practicing magic." That no new synthesis of magickal arte may be born after a certain period (which in many cases of the 'ancient systems of magic' is not so ancient as we are told) in human history, and speak of those old magicians as though their legacies are infallible and utterly complete the sum total of magickal knowledge to be discovered in the past or future.

You also seem to assume I buy into the "New Age fad Magic" - correct me if I am wrong on that perception - and dismiss me on the basis that I am not confined strictly to the old grimoires of the past. You are hardly the first, if it is true, to think that. You people often have much in common, poor attitude being perhaps the most common. As with them all, you simply quote dogma and the reasons you believe in it, with no explanation to actually justify that belief - simply that it works, and then deny that any other form of magick does. If your beliefs justify the truth of your word, and your experience justifies your belief, then can you deny that my experience justifies mine? And that so justified, my beliefs therefore confirm that which I put forth as true?

4. The laws of Magic are like gravity and does not discriminate. Those who recognize the law but do not apply the proper principles in a working, are merely saying "Lord, Lord." No problem here--your resullts will always be partial or none at all. The amount of 'slingshot effects' people have received for tampering with this system and 'making it their own' as if they knew what ithey were doing is really just beyond me. The laws work if one applies them correctly and they do not if they don't. Trial and error is all a part of 'experimental magic' which I will not even begin to get into now. Suffice it to say that it is only after the apprehension of Magic that it would be most safe engage in this stage--never before. Here, I can teach you from real-world experience.

And by "This System" You mean the heptameron, or old system magic in general? You are effectively suggesting that the system(s) cannot be 'tampered with', and therefore suggesting they are in themselves the sum of Magickal Law. More simply called, The Law, as it is no simply the Law of Magick, but the Law of All. I am not suggesting that one can simply read the Law from a book and then do magick, I said specifically, "The individual student's firm grasp of Magickal Law is all that is need to properly enact any and all acts of magick." I did not say, "The individual student's academic knowledge of Magickal Law..."

Grasping the patterns of structures - old grimoires included - is something that I do, a talent. I cannot speak for everyone, thus, in that regard, but I assure you, any tradition of magick has a structural basis which can be refitted to allow for a system of magick just as effective. It is not the system's dogmatic symbolism which does the work, it is the framework upon which that symbolism is enacted. That framework is established according to the formula which interpret and enact the Law, the Symbolism is Medium - it is Yesod, between Tiphareth and Malkuth. Even the names of spirits are simply combinations of universal principles emanating from the Monad, the Source, the Law expressing itself into form and function. I did not read the Law in a textbook, I confirmed my understanding with the education of those who came before me - I learned the Law by picking apart those old systems and watching very carefully in the course of my own practice, which included some failures, yes, but not for several years now.

5. I cannot anticipate what bizzare conclusions others will come to based on what I write here. Therefore, none of my posts will be 'perfect' but I will make an effort to address the issue more specifically. And no, I am not the only person on this website to have attained results, I speak to the masses of men and women looking for answers. All I can say for now is that it has been my experience that Old System Magic has NEVER failed me or any of my collegues--EVER. I am trying to show my point of view so that others may come the the realization of what is really going in this so-called magical community of the current era.

I will not doubt that Old System Magick has not failed you, or other people you know. I know plenty for whom it also works splendidly, and my brief experiences have also proven to me that what I have dabbled with works excellently. I don't doubt that old system magick works, but my experience has proven to me that it is not the only magick that does work. You say that you want to lead others to understand what is 'really' going on in this 'so-called magical community' of the current era. Please, be frank, tell us what is going on.

There are various reasons to be involved in magick. Some are content to gain things through magickal effort. Some are content to simply have obscure knowledge, putting it to no great use worth mentioning beyond their initial dabbling. Some simply enjoy the study of human interests through the ages. Some, endeavor to make magick a way of life, a passion, something to not simply practice, but to analyze, synthesis, and absorb thoroughly, and that for various reasons. Some believe it is a part of the key to transcendence, others simply obsess in a positive way, still others are simply predisposed to do so. Where a person falls into this scheme typically determines what he gets out of magick ultimately, and whether he is content to simply follow instructions and get stuff, or endeavor to take everything apart and peer into the minds of the men (and possibly women) who penned these old books. I fall into the latter category, and only rarely, in my early days (you may think me a child, but I started much younger than I am now, and no one learns faster than a child) have I done magick to get stuff. Mostly these days I divine, and live more and more accordingly to the Law with each passing season. I can't prove to you anything, nor do I have any reason to, but if you're going to make the assertions that you have made, then logically you ought to back them up, at least with reasoned words.

In the so-called 'new age' it is true there is a lot of dabbling, mixing, matching, and a whole lot of foolishness involved. Some of it harmless, some of it not so harmless, and some of it pure sophistry good for either confusing or stimulating the philosophical mind. But to assume that everyone not adhering strictly to 'old system magick' is involved purely in 'new-age' fluff, is inaccurate, insulting, and ignorant. In every era there are those who advance, those who stay where they are, and those who think they are advancing. The past centuries were no different than this one. Some views are outdated, some are valid, but limited, some are new, but invalid, and some are new and valid. Some are not new, but simply the regurgitation of history to redevelop the same outdated views with new clothes on.

The point is, old system magick is just that - certainly valid, but old system, and to suggest that there cannot be anything after what is old is simply ridiculous.

Sincerely

Vagrant

p.s. Norrinradd, I apologize for apparently steering this thread off course. I'll sort it all out afterwards, MODs, thank you, and Norrinradd, I do hope that you're gaining something from all this proselytizing jabber.

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Dec 23 2007, 02:57 AM

Vagrant:

No, I will not indulge your 'ego' or that of any other because it needs to be 'stroked' and shown what dynamic results I have achieved in my lifetime all because of a challenge--neither will any of my fellow collegues. All you want is instant gratification. That would be pointless! If you want to read about 'results' I urge you to read a good occult novel to satisfy this childish craving--this is all about ruthless WORK to achieve and attain all that you desire. This is a journey the individual must take himself and I, like them, are only trying to point individuals in this CORRECT direction. An idea whose time has come cannot be defeated and the time for Old System Magic HAS arrived!

As for the chalk, yes, I spoke from my own perspective, but made sure to mention the Heptameron specifically if this is the Grammar of Magic from which one is working. Why would anyone break a 3-millenium old tradition (that dates back to the time of the Egyptians and Greeks) just because of what you have written or your new age counterparts (those who desire a 'quick fix' and instant gratification by destroying the old rites and making them their own--it does not WORK) advocate? You have no say here, young man and you know what, neither do I! The law simply IS. I am not writing because I am 'angry' but because I am frustrated--as are many magicians throughout the world. This generation has taken these traditions and butchered them beyond recognition just because they 'felt' like it--this is a disgrace to the name to TRUE magic and shall be corrected.

I will end it here, since I gave my word that I would keep to the "said" topic (but certain matters could not go unadressed). You want to quarrel because you fear, and I would be enhancing this by going on--so I will not. Leave everything here if you fear nothing. People know what's going on and that is that the new age cannot defend their position properly and come to terms with destroying Magic. There is only one way--if people only knew what they could attain and how they could change their world if they put into effect what has been handed down through the Oral Tradition and through the Grammars of Magic, oh how life would be different! IF RESULTS are what you are after, then drop what you are doing--it will merit you nothing in the long run save for partial results to none at all. I speak to you only from EXPERIENCE!

Most Sincerely,

Mr. Curi

Greetings Colleagues!

I find that this discussion is somewhat stimulating and one that has raged for millenia ...<pause> yes, millenia! I have battled on both sides of the coin and, frankly, have determined that both sides (and the vast blur inbetween) have poignant points. Mr. Curi, I respect your position having, more often than naught, touted the Traditionalist point of view until blue in the face. Thank you for your viewpoint and input. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink... At the same time I will turn the tables on you. The cliche still applies. Vagrant Dreamer was trying to moderate what appears to be a fairly inflexible view...and for all the right reasons. Actually, you both are saying things that marry quite nicely...especially when you look at the underlying principle(s). Let me take a moment to reiterate my thorough 'disgust' at the modern Newage systems. The application of the Newage paradigms are woefully inaccurate when applied to the practice of 'Magic' and, in some respects, I'm glad that they will scuttle many a boat in the pursuit of 'Magic'...not because I dislike competition but rather am loathe to clean up after those half-baked with Newage goodness. Gakk! I will back up Vagrants request that you tone down the dogma and refrain from pointing fingers crying 'armchair magician'...it is totally counterproductive to the issues at hand. You are allowed your opinions but not to the detriment of others. Keep your own counsel! LOL! I've been called everything from a flake to a dogmatist to a fraud and back again. Our opinions tend to leak out when we feel strongly about something...and I'm STILL learning to hold back from ranting (OK...not that much *grin*).

I've worked a number of medieval/Rennaisance systems in the past with great success. Not once did I avail myself of going to a Christian church to obtain materials. Not once. There wasn't a concept of Christianity when my forbearers practiced their Arts. Evocation was old even then...so we know that Christ or even Jehovah was not necessary to bring about the desired result(s). Our concepts of divinity are old ... and it is in this that we find the wherewithal to practice Theurgia. Reconstructuralist systems can be a thing of Beauty but they don't necessarily corner the Magic market. There are other roads to take to our journey, some faster than others...each of us traveling according to their own speed. The big message here is that what kind of journey do we have and that we achieve our goals. Mr. Curi, you have established for yourself a workable method(s) for success. Thank you for pointing out what helped you achieve that success! Vagrant Dreamer, Thank you for showing us that the world is a diverse place and one may find their way with ingenuity and application. The rest, I fear, has disintegrated into Posturing. You are both Scholars and I never met any Scholars who agreed on everything. We should respect that, those of us who are abit more inflexible or set in our paths, and not devolve the subject at hand.

That being said, I return the thread to its original line with a warning to all...Dogmatism, though heartfelt, cannot be the order of the day. We are a DISCUSSION Forum and to deviate merely makes me longwinded and threatens Administrative action (and who needs that?)
Play nicely Gentlemen so I needn't have to be any more of an a**hole than normal! *grin* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/horse.gif)

Good day to you BYM,

Not a problem in the least, administrator. Thank you for approaching me in this way. You see, you view the situation quite well. This is a scholarly 'debate' and sometimes I tend to either do one of two things in my writing: ramble (as I tend to do in speech haha) or make my writing dogmatic. Yes, we'll make sure to discuss in the forums--it's just that sometimes in the heat of the argument...one or both don't realize they are doing this LOL. Once again, thank you for commenting, and a very happy holiday to you.

Most Sincerely,

Mr. Curi

From the Old System Magic perspective

No such thing exists. We refer to "old system magic" as a general term for more than a dozen different books from a period spanning more than 500 years. It is undoubtable that the authors all had different things in mind when they penned these books, and that we can but speculate on their beliefs about magic. We have only the modern perspective, and at that only our individual viewpoints, from which to understand these works by study and application.

I also agree in that we should maintain the individual traditions of magic. Realize that what one grimoire, or even several of them, say about how to do the ceremonies does not apply to the other works in the same vein.

In the matter of degree, the spirit that will appear in the smoke of the Perfume of the Art will appear so real that you will think it is another physical being you are conversing with. The reason is because the earth stabalizes the whole operation and the instability of the spirit works against them

Perhaps you are expert in the Heptameron, and the spirits thus conjured appear in the incense? This is not my experience with Goetia.

You assert some esoteric power of the earth to stabilize spirits, and you also assert that the spirits are themselves unstable. You reference Lisiewski for these ideas, but how well-grounded are these ideas? From what observations has this doctrine been derived? It is one thing to work successfully in the basement but not in the attic, but it is something further to suggest a magical power of the earth or to expand the definition of the spirits on account of it.

Is this bit about the instability of spirits and the stabilizing power of the bare earth in the Heptameron? Frakly it smacks of New Age sophistry.

I was once contacted by a man on this forum who wanted to casually work with demons in his UPPER room--he underwent massive psychological problems after my CRYSTAL CLEAR instructions to not 'do as you please.'

Now you can consider yourself contacted by someone who casually worked with demons in his upper room and had absolutely no trouble with it.

The spirit was Agares, and for the conjuration I used the large upper room in our old home. The building was formerly a mental health asylum, ironically, but the room did have carpeting. I laid down the circle on a painted cloth, and the triangle was made on the floor in tape with the names written on it with a marker. I have also used areas outdoors above and below ground, a concrete-floored garage, and my current conjuring room is a large tile-floor area. Aside from aesthetic concerns and the actual drawing of the circle, none of these flooring options made any difference in the ceremony or created any unwelcome side-effects.

If, for example, you are working from the Heptameron (a Magical ritual with CATHOLIC elements)--you obtain that blessed chalk from a CATHOLIC priest!

If you perform ceremonies of Tibetan Buddhism that require incense blessed by the Panchen Lama, then you'll need that one to do the ceremony. If there is no sort of priest specified, nor instruction to make them by hand, then you are free to use candles from Wal-Mart. The same goes for the chalk, the robe, and any other instrument where there is no specific rule about its construction and consecration.

there was a post in this thread saying something about if i am to evoke demons or angels or whatever then i was advised to do the evokation on the earth like in a cellar, garage ect.

I am mainly interested in evoking elements or elemental enerrgy. I read about someone who does this for artistic inspiration or unconvering a talent and or potentials(which is what im interested in). This person I think it was a moderator on this forum would evoke the air elemental energies to aid in his inspiration in creating an art project or writing a paper.

do i still need to be grounded on earth to have success in evoking an air elemental energy or other elemental energies???

how about evoking the earth elemental energy?? Do i have to be grounded on earth for the operation for evoking the earth element energies to be a success??


thanks

Norrin

p.s.-one more question Which grimoires do i need to purchase to learn how to evoke elements because i didnt see anything about evoking elements in my Golden Dawn book.

I am mainly interested in evoking elements or elemental enerrgy. I read about someone who does this for artistic inspiration or unconvering a talent and or potentials(which is what im interested in). This person I think it was a moderator on this forum would evoke the air elemental energies to aid in his inspiration in creating an art project or writing a paper.

I find that it is easiest to evoke elemental energies and/or entities in places that are amiable to them. But that is by no means a solid rule - correspondences to attract that element on your altar is all that you need to create an amiable atmosphere for elemental energies or entities. I try to evoke elementals in environments that suit them, it simply makes it easier in my experience - gnomes on the ground somewhere; sylphs on a rooftop or at least under the sky; undines near a body of water; salamanders near a fire (a fireplace, a bonfire, etc, even just a small fire in a bowl). When it comes to working with angels of the elements, they represent the higher order of elements, and are often easier to call for aid in some regards, although they are more about teaching, where elementals are more about doing. So, an angel of air (in this instance) might be the way to go. It's up to your preference. For instance a sylph may stimulate your intellect, whereas an angel would be excellent for teaching you methods to stimulate your own intellect. Evoking the elemental air energy itself, will cause your intellect to be more active, but will require your own will to direct it properly. So, some combination may be in order, and either elementals or angels can instruct you in how to direct that airy energy.

do i still need to be grounded on earth to have success in evoking an air elemental energy or other elemental energies???

Like imperial arts said, ultimately the location is not as important (ground or above ground) in order to evoke something, as the atmosphere and your connection to that place. In my own work, I typically work on the bare earth in some fashion (basement, outside, etc.) in order to do works of manifestation, as the binding of elements together is the purview of earth and these energies are, for me, more accessible while on the ground. But, a place off of the ground will be, I think, more amiable to air elementals specifically, whether that is an apartment, an attic, or a rooftop, etc.

how about evoking the earth elemental energy?? Do i have to be grounded on earth for the operation for evoking the earth element energies to be a success??

Same as above, the atmosphere is more important, however in my own experience I find it easier to work with those energies when I am on the ground. However, the hermetic element of earth is not specific to the earth itself, the planet, but rather all manifested things, so the presence of the earth elemental energy is ultimately inescapable, and present wherever you are doing work within malkhuth. ON that logic, I would say, no it is not required, depending on the aim of the operation - for instance you could be doing work to learn about minerals, plants, growing things, etc. - in which case I believe that working on the ground would be advantageous. If you are seeking the aid of, or education in, the elemental properties of earth as an archetypal elemental force, then anywhere is as advantageous as anywhere else.

p.s.-one more question Which grimoires do i need to purchase to learn how to evoke elements because i didnt see anything about evoking elements in my Golden Dawn book.

Which book? What you're going to be working with there is a basic formula for evocation. You'll do the banishing ritual first, then the invoking ritual of the appropriate element, then work an evocation ritual for an elemental entity - or, the simple invocation ritual along with a meditation or spell utilizing that elemental energy, if you choose to simply work with the energy itself. The Golden Dawn, the book by I. Regardie, is a manual of magickal practice, not a spellbook, so it gives the theory and practice of magick, but not necessarily directions for each and every thing you want to accomplish. It gives a working framework that you can then apply creatively towards a particular operation. If you're working with Regardie's book, you're looking for chapter 6, the first part (evocation). This is a particular evocation script, but if you read over it and make bullet points for yourself about each step, you'll probably grasp the pattern in the ritual, and recognize which parts are specific to that ritual, and which parts are an aspect of general evocation. I'd rather not spell it out for you - although there are plenty of books that do - because you'll have a firmer grasp of the process if you analyze the ritual yourself, and reading through it like that is really an invaluable process.

That's of course, assuming you want to follow the golden dawn formula - and there are plenty of others that work. Konstaninos' summoning spirits gives a pretty simple formula, but for some people it's not involved enough a process to 'get in the mood'. There's also Bardon's method, The Practice of Magical Evocation, which I haven't had much experience with yet, but his initiatory book is excellent, so I would trust that book as well, although it suggests mastering the first book before proceeding to that book - it is none the less an excellent resource for learning about evocation in general, as theory, before putting it into practice.

In the meantime, simply associating yourself frequently with the element in question, and identifying yourself with it, will lead your intuition towards insights regarding the workings of the elements. So, spend some time meditating on the elemental energy, coming to understand it as a literal element, an archetypal elemental force, analyze the names associated with it (especially the hebrew names, as they are themselves formulas that describe the force which they name, see chapter 7, under skrying and astral visions, etc., as that chapter individually covers a great deal of information on the hebrew alphabet, assuming you want to go that route.

The more you understand an element, the easier it is to work with, just generally speaking. Though i'm certain that some individuals will disagree with everything I have suggested here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dots.gif)

peace

I'd suggest that you turn to The Prayers of the Elementals to do this wok from Transcedental Magic.

yeah Transcedental Magic a good idea, but i've also found modern magick helpful with it describing how to become close to an element , and getting to know its character, potential. The practise almost works as a sigil.which is very helpful. I think more books need to go into detail with elementals, most books just explain, there relation to the pentagram in Lbrp. Energy from elementals, is probaly just a kind of sensitive atmosphere. I heard that it was better to work with water to become sensitive to atmospheres of other elements. but i dont know if that would work best

Modern magic(k) is a contrivance of the new age. This is a recommendation: I would pay very little attention to this way of getting closer to elementals. What you need is a proper understanding of the elementals as a whole (from Old System Magic) then move to the application of Transcedental Magic within your Magical Chamber ONLY, obeying the rules all the while--avoid mixing systems as well, if you please (this is assuming you have established a baseline for your work). You will see there is no need for 'going outside' and 'getting in the mood' with the 'elements.' All will occur NATURALLY and as a result of your work that will bring about RESULTS. The rest, in my opinion, and feel free to disagree as much as you'd like, is a part of the nonsense that plagues the so-called 'magical' community of today. You may encounter troubling phenomenon as a result, so please make sure to be careful with these beings--control is crucial! It may prove to be costly since their manifestation is so in accord with their proper natures of air, fire, water, and earth. Forewarned is forearmed, I always say--but do what you want--I'm NOT here to convince anyone--just to tell you what WORKS consistently and WITHOUT failure.

This post has been edited by Mr. Curi: Jan 2 2008, 08:41 AM

am mainly interested in evoking elements or elemental enerrgy. I read about someone who does this for artistic inspiration or unconvering a talent and or potentials(which is what im interested in). This person I think it was a moderator on this forum would evoke the air elemental energies to aid in his inspiration in creating an art project or writing a paper.

do i still need to be grounded on earth to have success in evoking an air elemental energy or other elemental energies???

how about evoking the earth elemental energy?? Do i have to be grounded on earth for the operation for evoking the earth element energies to be a success??

Use salt for you circle. It cooresponds directly with the element of earth. Technically if you conjure anything its suppose to be on hallowed grounds of some nature. But I've had success using salt or dirt from a sacred place. I would not work in doors and be sure you dot your i's and cross your t's when you're finished.

Scott Cunningham's books "Earth Power: Techniques of natural magic" and "Earth, Air, Fire Water: More techniques of natural magic" are probably easily accessible and I think they are very well written for begginers, imho.

I agree with Acid09, use salt. But in my experience, use the technique offered on Dr. Joseph Lisiewski's website called the "Aspersion Ritual of Protection and Opportunity" in which salt AND water is used (8thmatrixpress.com). Go and find the article, this is all a part of the process...there are other interesting response to readers questions and Magical thoughts of the week that will benefit the follower of the ancient and CORRECT way of practicing Magic. There has been NOTHING more powerful than this in all my years of experience if this simple ritual is followed on a daily basis! Not only will you build a physical and psychic circle for yourself, but you will also GET exactly what it was designed to do AND MORE if you have your Magical Chamber to begin this process of Old System Magic. Oh, you will be in for some surprises...but that's only the beginning! Remember please: the 'Magical Chamber' must be a completely bare room about 12 feet by 12 feet or a little less than this, but NEVER under 9 feet. It must also be positioned DIRECTLY upon concrete or the earth and there cannot be anything in there--neither can it ever be entered or 'violated' by another person--there are exceptions, this is for another post. Try this...you might be in for a SHOCK! This System WORKS and is NOT like the new age material that will NEVER PROMISE those long awaited RESULTS that people so badly crave. This is all about WORK. THEN, and only then will the results come to you AUTOMATICALLY and without the 'feel good' emotions that has destroyed the proper sense and truth behind the manipulation of the psychic laws in Magic. Here, there is no brainwashing--it simply is. Amazing things DO await the sincere who put into EFFECT what has been tested by me and my fellow collegues in the realm of Magic. Again, these are merely suggestions, but I am telling you what works and what has NEVER let me down--EVER. You will see what I mean when you try this, but the lazy won't go anywhere--this I can assure you that now.

Most Sincerely,

Mr. Curi

This post has been edited by Mr. Curi: Jan 2 2008, 09:03 PM