Servitor Interview?, Could a method used by fiction authors be helpful when creating entiti Options

This may sound completely stupid but forgive me I'm a noob to all this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/baby.gif)

I've heard that sci-fi and fantasy authors 'interview' their characters by imagining them sitting across from them in a room and asking questions. The answers are supposed to let you get to the know the characters more.

Could this be useful if you intended to give a servitor/tulpa/whatever a personality? I was thinking about creating a 'friend' servitor just to start out with, and I was wondering if this could help.

And if it could, what would be some good questions to ask?

There's a great chat transcript I have had rattling around my SL account! I hope it's not too long!
(Ms. Goldenberg has offered permission for it's posting via my friend J., thanks you two!)

[11:06] Fleet Goldenberg: Well, let's start things moving. :)
[11:06] Fleet Goldenberg: The scientific definition of a 'lifeform' is a biological organism with the capability to respirate, excrete and reproduce. If it exists and breathes then it is accorded the status of Life.
[11:07] Fleet Goldenberg: The concept of non-biological sentience being acknowledged as alive is unacceptable to science and so ghosts and rock monsters, even if they were proven conclusively to exist, would be classified officially as 'things' no matter how intelligent they were. The same already holds true for electronic artificial intelligence.
[11:07] Fleet Goldenberg: Have you ever read about or watched a fictional character and wanted them to be real? Most people have done so, especially as children. Here's some news for you then. They are real!
[11:07] Fleet Goldenberg: When a writer creates and describes in detail a fictional world and its inhabitants then the mental energy of the creator is channelled into their designs, forming an invisible micro-universe in which the imaginative power is molded into physical structure that is solid to its inhabitants but intangible to everything outside of it.
[11:07] Wyn Galbraith nods, all the time.
[11:08] Fleet Goldenberg: The events that occur in these pocket dimensions are influenced by the thoughts of the creators that they are linked to and are also sustained by mental energy supplied by every human who believes in that universe through following its fictional adventures on paper or in moving pictures.
[11:08] Fleet Goldenberg: The greater the fan following of a fictional world, the greater the amount of energy that is infused into it and hence the stronger that world and its populace grows. As Roger Rabbit correctly observed in the movie Who Framed Roger Rabbit, "Toons don't die, they just fade away".
[11:10] Fleet Goldenberg: Do any of you have a particular character from a book, movie or tv/comics that you would like to have a conversation with?
[11:10] Wyn Galbraith nods, "Spock."
[11:10] Samnsara Dean: Ha! Dr. or Mr.?
[11:11] Wyn Galbraith laughs, "The Mr. There are many more, thought I would keep it short."
[11:11] WoodBee Writer: lol
[11:12] Fleet Goldenberg: At what point in his life? It's very important to decide on this. Just like we have a past, present and future, characters have different stages of their lives as well. So if one decides they want to speak to Spock, they may not get the precise Spock they want. They could end up talking to Child Spock, Original Series Spock or Next Generation Spock!
[11:12] Wyn Galbraith: The oldest, cause he would contain them all ;)
[11:13] Fleet Goldenberg: That makes excellent sense, yes. If it is wisdom you are after, the older versions are the best to go for
[11:14] Fleet Goldenberg: And once you have decided the age at which you wish to speak to that character, you should try to decide on a specific location based on your knowledge of that character's life. For instance, if you wanted elder Spock, you could choose 'Spock on Romulus during the 24th Century'
[11:15] Fleet Goldenberg: Although all of this seems strange, the purpose of creating specific criteria is to narrow your connection down to the exact Spock that you want to talk to.
[11:16] Wyn Galbraith ponders those points.
[11:16] Fleet Goldenberg: And once you have decided character and time and location then one thing remains ... to decide what you want to ASK the character
[11:16] Samnsara Dean: welcome :-)
[11:16] Ilse Mannonen: :)
[11:18] Fleet Goldenberg: Ok, as a test of the process, let's do a practical example. Somebody give me the name, age range (and location of a character and a question for them, and I will try to get that character to answer your qustion.
[11:19] Fleet Goldenberg: I can't see if anyone is typing from here :)
[11:19] WoodBee Writer: Iago 40-ish Cyprus
[11:19] Fleet Goldenberg: Iago is a classical character, isn't he?
[11:20] WoodBee Writer: why did you choose to being down Othello in the way you did?
[11:20] WoodBee Writer: sorry lame question really
[11:20] Fleet Goldenberg: No, it's fine :)
[11:20] WoodBee Writer: sorry did you want someone from modern lit?
[11:20] Fleet Goldenberg: Okay, give me a minute please to ask. :)
[11:20] Fleet Goldenberg: Iago is fine as an example
[11:22] Fleet Goldenberg: The response I get to that question is "If I had not done it, somebody else would have". How does that sound to you, Woodbee?
[11:22] WoodBee Writer: interesting - I had never thought of it from that angle before
[11:22] WoodBee Writer: but yes
[11:22] Samnsara Dean: good one
[11:23] Fleet Goldenberg: Ok, before I explain how to do the technique yourselves, may I have another example?
[11:23] Wyn Galbraith speaks up and continues her choice, "Spock - Romulus - How to present logic when others refuse that logic with non-logical views?"
[11:23] Fleet Goldenberg: Thank you.
[11:25] Fleet Goldenberg: "If one runs from themselves then there is nowhere for them to go but over a mental cliff."
[11:26] WoodBee Writer: Could I ask a question please?
[11:26] Fleet Goldenberg: Sure.
[11:26] Wyn Galbraith ponders that.
[11:26] WoodBee Writer: Isn't this a way of finding out about ourselves as much as the character?
[11:26] Fleet Goldenberg: What is your question, Woodbee
[11:27] Fleet Goldenberg: There is something in that, Woodbee. I have on occasion used the technique to converse with my inner self as well as fictional characters
[11:27] WoodBeeWriter: OK thanks
[11:28] Samnsara Dean: I just talk aloud to my self and sometimes I answer
[11:28] WoodBee Writer: lol
[11:28] Fleet Goldenberg: Ok, I'll move onto the technique itself. I'd like to give replies all day but it can be tiring to do repeatedly in a short space of time and the accuracy of the responses tends to go down the more you do in one day.
[11:29] Fleet Goldenberg: I'll say first though that one should remember that although the characters have never had a biological existence, they are sentient and have feelings and so should be treated with the respect that you would want to receive yourself. Unless they are evil, in which case by all means cuss them out!
[11:30] WoodBee Writer: :)
[11:30] Fleet Goldenberg: Do not be surprised either if the questioning reveals small deviations in their life choices and relationships from the canon even if their personality is consistent.
[11:30] Fleet Goldenberg: Although it is the writer that provides them with their life plan, they have the same free will as us to make choices of their own within the framework and major turning points of their destiny.
[11:30] Fleet Goldenberg: That they should have an independent life at all is not inconsistent with existing studies. There have been recorded accounts in which paranormal researchers have devised a description of a fictional ghost with a false history and then placed total conviction in the description.
[11:31] Fleet Goldenberg: The 'spirit' subsequently manifested with a physical appearance that closely resembled the researchers' design and related its fantasy history to the researchers through mediumship.
[11:31] Fleet Goldenberg: Whatever is created in the realms of the mind becomes real in the outer world if the creation is strongly believed in, because thought is energy given direction and application.
[11:31] Fleet Goldenberg: How is everyone so far?
[11:32] Samnsara Dean: good.
[11:32] WoodBee Writer: great.
[11:32] Fleet Goldenberg: I'll be giving out a transcript to everyone at the end of the class.
[11:32] Erictherole Bailey: clear.
[11:32] Wyn Galbraith suddenly feels like Janeway going to the holodeck to speak to a certain old man long dead.
[11:32] Samnsara Dean: Oh good, then I will quit taking notes.
[11:34] Fleet Goldenberg: Ok, the technique. I have already described about the preparation. Decide who you want to speak to, the time during their lifespan, location, and then of course your question. Write your question or questions down on a piece of paper to read from before you commence the technique.
[11:36] Fleet Goldenberg: Once you have done this, you are ready to begin. Place your mind in a state of calmness and clearly 'speak' the following command in your mind: "Connect me to [character] at age [x] at [location]"
[11:36] Fleet Goldenberg: At this point, feel with certainty that you have formed a mental connection to that character, as though you can almost see a visible line between your mind and theirs.
[11:37] Fleet Goldenberg: Then look at your piece of paper and clearly issue the question written on the piece of paper as a mental command.
[11:39] Fleet Goldenberg: Now listen to the words that come into your mind. Do not try to hear, as straining will create a mental block. Just listen as a stream of words come to you. The words will be in your own 'mental voice' and you may think that your own mind has just made them up and you are not actually hearing the voice of the character. Believe in what you are hearing in your mind and note the words down. You can rationalize whether they are true or not once the process is over.
[11:41] Fleet Goldenberg: After the contact, once you have broken off the connection and are thinking about the validity and meaning of the words, you will be able to compare the personality and speech style in the reply to the official canon version of the character in tv / movies / books to confirm whether you have indeed contacted the intended personality or if you are mistaking your own imaginative thoughts for conversation.
[11:42] Fleet Goldenberg: That is the technique in a nutshell. It may take practice to get results, but as I demonstrated, there is validity in it. Any questions so far?
[11:42] WoodBee Writer: when you say issue the question as a mental command do you mean you start with "Please tell me..."?
[11:43] Wyn Galbraith: So this technique could be used to contact any personality.
[11:44] Fleet Goldenberg: Any personality, yes. It also has applications for contacting real entities, but that is an entirely different class. :) And yes Woodbee, if the character is deserving of respect then starting with Please is a good move!
[11:44] WoodBee Writer: OK
[11:44] SamnsarDean: Animal communicators use this?
[11:45] Fleet Goldenberg: Animal communication, which I sometimes do as well, is a bit different as their minds work a bit differently to human or human-like ones
[11:45] Samnsara Dean: will u be having a class on that soon? (I hope.)
[11:46] Fleet Goldenberg: But when talking to animals, messages are automatically translated from English into a mental language the animal understands. Thought is a universal language.
[11:47] Fleet Goldenberg: I haven't got a class specifically covering animal contact, though I do have a shaman-related class in my portfolio. I would develop an animal class if there was a popular demand
[11:47] Poor Writer: What about non-living characters?
[11:47] WoodBee Writer: I'd be interested too
[11:47] Fleet Goldenberg: Like zombies? :)
[11:47] Poor Writer: Data?
[11:47] Samnsara Dean: Me as well!
[11:47] Wyn Galbraith: Like passed on friends, family.
[11:47] WoodBee Writer: yes, Data!
[11:48] Samnsara Dean: Zombies lol
[11:49] Fleet Goldenberg: As the character is a construct of a writer's mental energy then yes, Data or other machines would have a personality. I believe even real life machines have a rudimentary 'personality', since they have energy fields and electrical pulses moving around them like a human brain
[11:49] Samnsara Dean: Ii agree 100%
[11:49] Fleet Goldenberg: It's my experience that if you have a computer that is working badly, it'll work even worse if you get mad at it.
[11:50] JD Carter: lol
[11:50] JD Carter: So true.
[11:50] Poor Writer: Would it be the case then that it would work for anything that people apply human or living characteristics to?
[11:50] Samnsara Dean: Is that why SL is acting up all the time?
[11:50] Wyn Galbraith always speaks nicely to SL.
[11:50] Samnsara Dean: ...swears and yells at SL.
[11:51] Erictherole Bailey: Question: Does knowledge of the canon help or hinder communication?
[11:51] Wyn Galbraith: Aha! Then it's Samnsara's fault! ;)
[11:51] Fleet Goldenberg: In the case of fictional characters, I think anything created can be communicated with. With FirstLife entities/animals, it is, of course, a bit more complex
[11:51] Samnsara Dean: ...so steps out of SL has a glass of wine... then resumes later
[11:51] Poor Writer: True.
[11:51] Samnsara Dean: haha... I drink a lot of wine lately!!
[11:51] Cindy Crabgrass giggles.
[11:53] Fleet Goldenberg: Well, relying on canon too heavily can instill doubt if the response seems too off of the official. Remember though that some characters are written about by many different writers, each who have their own interpretation of the character. So in such instances, such as comic books, you should add to your narrowing criteria the writer of the character you want to talk to.
[11:53] Fleet Goldenberg: So you can have a version of the character for each writer... i.e. a number of parallel versions with different opinions.
[11:53] Samnsara Dean: What is canon??
[11:53] Erictherole Bailey: TY
[11:54] Fleet Goldenberg: Canon is the official storyline of a book or comic. Non-canon tends to be a story, such as fan fiction, which is not accepted as official by the characters' creators.
[11:54] Samnsara Dean: ty
[11:55] Fleet Goldenberg: Ok, if you're willing for this class to overrun by a few minutes, I will go into creating your own fictional dimensions with characters of your own design to comunicate with.
[11:56] Cindy Crabgrass: sure
[11:56] Samnsara Dean: sure
[11:56] WoodBee Writer: yes :)
[11:56] Fleet Goldenberg: I'll give you an exercise to do later. Write on a piece of paper a fictional description of a place from your imagination, making it as detailed as possible. It need not be inhabitated with people. When you have done so, imagine a magical object of ultimate power and add it to the description.
[11:56] Wyn Galbraith needs to run to the kitchen to get her coffee, but is willing.
[11:57] Fleet Goldenberg: Begin the connection process, but this time issue the mental command in this format: "Connect me to the name of magical object in name of your created world" and then issue the thought "Name of magical object, give me all of your magical energy now!"
[11:58] Fleet Goldenberg: Then mentally note any sensations you experience
[12:00] Fleet Goldenberg: A friend of mine created a fictional dimension (which will remain nameless so people don't connect to it) that had an all-powerful magical wish granting book in it. In time, I got involved too in communicating with this dimension. He had designed it to have no occupants, but over time it developed dolphins in its oceans.
[12:01] Fleet Goldenberg: And then he found that no matter how hard he tried, he could not project himself inside that dimension. He would continually go through a tunnel and almost reach the entrance but then be bounced back to full consciousness by an invisible barrier.
[12:02] Fleet Goldenberg: So I made attempts to reach it myself by the same method. After a number of tries, I got in, only to discover that a giant god-like eye was looking down at me from the sky ... apparently the dimension had developed a god-personality all of its own without the writer's willing it.
[12:03] WoodBee Writer: wow!
[12:03] Fleet Goldenberg: I tried to look around but a woman-like figure would stand in front of me and try to block my view, much like when your parents come home after you've had a wild party and you don't want them to see the cigarette burns on the carpet.
[12:03] WoodBee Writer: LOL
[12:04] Wyn Galbraith: Wouldn't work if the god eye was female.
[12:04] Fleet Goldenberg: And from this we guessed that once you create a world from a fictional description then it begins to evolve on its own. Left for some years, you can end up with a giant god eye there.
[12:04] WoodBee Writer: It doesn't sound like a very comforting god.
[12:05] Fleet Goldenberg: Whatever you create has a free will of its own.
[12:05] Fleet Goldenberg: You have to remember that in the context of this universe, it contained a magic wish granting book. Wouldn't you be defensive if you were the god of that world?
[12:05] WoodBee Writer: Hmm - if I were omnipotent I wouldn't need to be defensive.
[12:06] Samnsara Dean: ha
[12:06] Fleet Goldenberg: Also, I was not the creator of that world, and so although I was the friend of the creator - and maybe that's why nothing bad happened to me - I was in some sense intruding.
[12:07] Fleet Goldenberg: There is something that happened later that was far more shocking though.
[12:08] Fleet Goldenberg: Some years after this attempt, I was on a beach in the real world one day when I drew a symbolic diagram on the beach symbolizing connections between this world and that world, and wrote out a message. I turned my back for a moment and when I turned back, there was an extra stone amongst the letters, changing the message.
[12:09] Wyn Gabraith leans forward, "What was the message?"
[12:09] Fleet Goldenberg: Once you create that world then you create a link between that world and our one. Everything in the universe is connected, but sometimes through the process of what you do, you can make some links stronger than others.
[12:11] Fleet Goldenberg: It was a while ago, but I think for some reason I chose to write 'Marin' ... I think it may have been a word I heard from the god eye and was curious about for a while. When the stone was added, it said 'Marina' ... which made some kind of logical sense in that I had performed the ceremony beside the ocean.
[12:11] WoodBee Writer: Has anyone here seen the film Paper house based on the children's book Marianne Dreams by Catherine Storr?
[12:12] Wyn Galbraith: Marin is a county in California's Bay Area. I pretty uppity county. ;)
[12:12] Fleet Goldenberg: I haven't seen it, no.
[12:12] Samnsara Dean: no uh-uh
[12:12] WoodBee Writer: It's very much about what we've been discussing here.
[12:12] Fleet Goldenberg: I think we'd better wrap things up though. If anyone wants to talk about concepts further, please contact me anytime.
--END OF TRANSCRIPT--

There's a great chat transcript I have had rattling around my SL account! I hope it's not too long!
(Ms. Goldenberg has offered permission for it's posting via my friend J., thanks you two!)

That's really interesting, thanks so much for posting it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) I think i've heard a theory like that somewhere.
When you create a fictional creature or world, it becomes real if it's believed in.
I should try to create a character and see if I can talk to him/her/it. As for worlds, i'm not sure i'm up to that
yet.

Also, another thought that this maybe should be in another thread, but could you make a tulpa(visible possibly to others but more likely just to you) based on a living person without affecting that person? Like if I made one of my sister, is obviously isn't her but it looks and acts like her.

Thanks to whoever humors me and my noob questions

Ack... my mind just exploded!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angry_pissed_off_emoticon.gif)

Sure you can use your sister as a model for a servitor…however at least two things come into play, and I am still not seeing the benefits on any level.

First, no matter what happens your relationship with your sister will be affected not by your sister but by your servitor.

Second, no matter what happens your relationship with your servitor will be affected not by your servitor but by your sister.

Third, you won’t know if it was something you thought your sister said or did, or if it was your servitor.

In the end totally confusing, and the more I think about it the more reasons I think not to do it.

There is a side of me that screams to want you to do it and document what happens in extreme detail…I’m interested.

But in general you do not want living beings as models because they change, your perception of them changes.
I would also not go with people who as you discover more about your opinions of them change.

I first learned about Aleister Crowley about 17 years ago, in the last 7 years I could not say that six months have passed where my opinion of him has stayed stable. So pick your targets as archetypal as possible and that your opinion of them is fairly stable. Safe for me…any of the Winnie the Poo characters, peanuts characters, sesame street characters, robotech, transformers (might change as movies might restart them)…

In essence go for something you doubt will change your opinion of them any time soon, yet you know as well as you will know. I avoid any historical figures that have a cult following because if there is a new biography, and I have interest…I am apt to read it, changing my perspective of them, changing my perspective of my servitor.

I would wait on others with more experience in this regard, I time my servitors to very short time frames…I am just now thinking on expanding that.

Wow I'm really learning a lot here at Sacred-Magick I think it's clear I have no experience with creatings things right now I'm just double-checking things I've read elsewhere and thanks to everyone that helped me I really appreciate it.
I read that servitors were, when the idea of creating them was fairly new, based off living people sometimes.

I hadn't thought about how your servitor might change with you opinion of the person as I thought it really was a very separate thing. Almost like putting on a halloween costume, you can dress up as a vampire, act like a vampire, but you are certianly not a vampire. So a servitor is a spirit 'wearing' a physical 'costume'. Then again apparently not. My biggest fear had that this 'doppleganger' could try and harm the actual person.

Also, I just randomly said my sister because creating entities requires a lot of concentration and you have to know exactly what it will look and act like. And it takes less than a second for me to get a clear mental image of any of my family and friends.

Maybe a totally fictional character created by me would work better? I could go along with trying to create it without ever drawing a picture of it and showing it to anybody, describing it,ect. so no outside influences could mess with it and I could have a very set opinion of it with a simple character profile.

Ok, stop, back way back. You over complicated this somewhere.

Dangers from servitors are minimal, unless your intent is very targeted physic damage, if that is the case, reexamine your motives, if someone discovers it…likely they are coming back at you with more then a Servitor.

The main problem is you, always you (this goes for anyone) . we have trouble understanding people when they talk to us as it is, adding a level of confusion by making an entity that looks and acts like them, can only lead to more piss poor communication. I was not talking about doppelgangers. You should be the only person to ever see this entity as an entity, someone will have to be totally sensitive to sense it as anything more then your energy in a tied up mode.

Servitors are the simplest of simpleton objects in the astral universe. Think of them as the scripts (as opposed to programs) of the spirit world. They have more of a problem staying together then running amuck.

Since they are made of you, you can always reabsorb them.

However, if you make one you like, no reason to absorb it back.

Single task rinse and repeat entities is what they are pretty much are.

What’s needed.
1. concept
2. intent
3. correspondence
4. time
5. material
6. form

Concept, what is it for?

Intent, specifically what is it’s task?

Correspondence, what symbols, planets, incense, colors correspond to the intent.

Time, how long it has to finish its work

Material, does it require physical focus, if so this can be anything, I have used keys that go nowhere (I use them for other reasons now as well) some use table top war game figures, anything can work, if it has some correspondence probably better.

Form: what does it look like in astral form…this is where you got confused I think…it could be an egg with wings if that will accomplish it’s task, chaos lovers love to make things totally bizarre for the sake of it. I love complicating my life with rules…then trying to remember why I made those rules up. There is no reason for it to be as complex as a person.

Once you play around with this for a while (20 years just kidding) where you are comfortable, move on to more complex versions, more complex tasks.

Phil Hine has some great words on this, and many other topics look up his web site. Evocation is your concern once you get to his site so search for it.

Hope that helps…at the same time, that bit of fear is healthy. Being precise with intent is always a good thing, as well as contemplating unexpected results.

Yeah short-term servitors with simple tasks is what i'm planning to start out with. Maybe a ball of light or something easy to visualize could be the form of that. But once I'm used to that I'd like to try something along the lines of the "Phillip Experiment" which would require more detail on the thing itself. If I practice for a long time and become really confident in my abilities a David-Neel type Tulpa would be my ultimate goal but I know I'm far from doing that right now.
Thanks for you help I'll try something simple maybe keep a blog of how it goes.

I just found this website Sons of Darkness this sounds like just the thing I want to but I wonder if getting so attached to a creation that you think of it as a 'son' would be smart. I've heard never get attached them as they're pretty much disposable. Anyone ever actually used this?

I just found this website Sons of Darkness this sounds like just the thing I want to but I wonder if getting so attached to a creation that you think of it as a 'son' would be smart. I've heard never get attached them as they're pretty much disposable. Anyone ever actually used this?

Oops sorry I meant to put the link it's www. magma. ca/~yeti/sod. htm

Being that I played with Potassium nitrate quite a bit, this place needs to have no smoke detectors of any kind.

This ceremony in my mind has potential, but it is messy on every possible level. If this was not a chaos spell, I would be asking “WTF???”

The fact that it is asking for it to not be well ventilated means it is going for intoxication. The paper is going to make you cough and possibly burn your throat, but since I have not dealt with this procedure I do not know.

The paper will probably burn with an unusual color, or in a flash. I forget.

Well no flash, it is used to make black power, with sulfur and carbon, that makes a flash and toxic smoke.

All in all this has a level of theater to the spell, the codependences mentioned add a level of truly needing to be attached to the project, as does the lack of ventilation.

Would I do this, no, anything that includes human excrement and sex in the same correspondence I tend to shy away from, so I am a prude.

Would I do this, no, anything that includes human excrement and sex in the same correspondence I tend to shy away from, so I am a prude.

Yeah I couldn't follow it word-for-word even if I wanted to. But spells can be changed a bit, as long as you keep the basics the same right?
What I meant was the idea of creating an 'imaginary friend' and giving it a name(I'll have trouble with that most likely), a personality and, appearance, and then doing a basic quarters/elements ritual and giving it breath, vitality, ect.
I know it's no David-Neel tulpa but could that theory work?
Thanks for answering my question I think I'll try it as soon as I have something in mind. Call me a skittish noob but I couldn't accidentally create a knife-hurling poltergiest, could I? I'm guessing that's one of those "well, there's always a chance..." deals.

This post has been edited by artistik: Oct 29 2007, 07:36 PM

Well this topic has gone through some changes. Anyway, if asking my recommendations. If I was where you are now, and or had to start from scratch. I would start by picking up “Summoning Spirits” by Konstantinos, doing the practices in there. I don’t agree with many things there, but it is probably the best concise book on the subject out at the moment. That should eat up about 3~6 months of your time.

I have huge holes in my abilities, mainly because I never followed one path too long, I would also recommend taking up some more classic ceremonial practice. Most would recommend Modern Magick or High Magic, both have mistakes or places I have strong differences of opinions. However both cover the bases fairly well, and the practices inside I see nothing that is detrimental to 1st and 2nd year attainments. Another thing is if you do everything in either of the books. You will have a strong foundation. Giving you the ability to communicate with some authority on anything in those books.

High magic goes more the chaos rout, Modern Magick goes more the classical Ceremonial rout. Both have strengths and weaknesses, but consider them manuals for a beginner.

So armed with two Books, Summoning Spirits and your choice of Modern Magick or High Magic you have about a year or two of good guidance. Follow them to the tee, treat them as your bibles, do the work and you will get results and a whole new world will have opened up, not to mention, you probably won’t have annoying holes in your knowledge.

Understand that once you are done, you will reach a place of incredible frustration. Nearly nothing published by Llewellyn (the largest popular occult publisher) will be worth the paper it is printed on. You will graduate to Weiser and other publishers because Llewellyn offers you next to nothing of a higher nature and their fact checking is iffy and that is being positive.

The exceptions are well renown experts, Isreal Regardie and some others.

At this point you will have a firm grasp of what states of consciousness are and where you have to be to perform X. You will also have the habbit of keeping a magickal Diary (my biggest bane) and totally worth the effort, I just can not bring myself to keep one except during big works.

The Diary more then anything will probably show you your evolution.

From here you then can start looking into points of interest with more information at your disposal. Kabala, high magic, chaos, Mandalas, Tarot, enochian….

I would also recommend start studying different religions, as completely as possible. Pagan religions, are a good start, as the fundamentals of high magic will serve. There is little depth in most protestant Christian sects, so it should not take much time, but you won’t get much out of them. The Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, totally different matter. I would also recommend the Mormons, but they are hard to get straight answers from. In the Jewish faith you can spend eons studying it. There is also the Eastern Faiths where you can spend an eternity.

But having a strong common base to pull from is really big. I have the issue that I learned things in a haphazard way, and those that provided my introduction left me unbalanced. I know how to do some odd things with very little in way of explaining them or comparing them to anything resembling a known structure. But if I need them, I always fall back to them.

In the astral, I still can not hear a thing that is not a mental communication. This is good and bad, but at times I would not mind being entertained by all the pretty sounds I know are flowing around me.

Overall after you have a base, you can always find more to learn and specialize to your hearts content.

Thick of magick as learning to drive in a place with no speed limits. You are not going to jump into a Ferrari and onto the freeway the first time out, you could, but you will probably do some expensive damage right away.

Another thing to know, everything you learn can be revaluated every 3-4 years. What you thought you knew now, you will eather disagree or really know in your heart in three years. So much so that you will not know what you where thinking when you tried something and it did not work as intended. (this is where a journal would be key).

I would make a solemn vow to take two of those three books as my teacher for the next 12 months (Halloween is a good day for solemn vows). ask for guidance to come your way, and the streagth to follow through on the vow, knowing that there will be hardship.

I see no down side other then the work involved. But if you really choose this path, there is always work to be done.

Sorry about going so far off subject but thanks so much this is a huge help. I learned all of what I know in a 'haphazard' way too, backwards form what you just advised with studying religion coming before magick. I started with Wicca and then branched out into other Pagan religions(I was raised Christian but having it kind of shoved down my throat all my life I have a strong dislike for it). When I started exploring Buddism I came across the idea of the Tulpa and became fascinated and overly eager to create one.

The books are a problem. I couldn't live alone even if I wanted to right now and getting the books in undetected would be nearly impossible(there's no way they'd be allowed in this house, either). I've just been studying on the Internet and I know not everything there can be totally trusted as fact, although I do trust Sacred-Magick.

The diary will be as simple a word processor or notebook but I think I'll have to wait before taking this much father. Right now I'm limited to studying online and doing meditation and working with energy or Ki, with knowledge of Wiccan spells I never really use. I'm only 17 and 3-4 years sounds like forever to me but for this I'm very content to wait until I can do it all properly. Seems I'll be biding my time for now.

Dilemas dilemas dilemas.

A year is not much time, the 3 or 4 years was as a good time to evaluate progress, your mind will have changed do much by then.

On the Christian side of things…it is a good religion, depending on the flavor it offers a lot of mystical routs or none. But I find it important that people be proud of their roots, it made them who they are today, it allows them to ask the questions they ask today.

Anyway, there are other ways to obtain the books, not that I would recommend anything like that…but man how those kids these day download music and almost never pay for it, the little rat bastards :-P.

In a digital format you can print what you need as you need it. Not as comfy as sitting down to read a book, but more convenient when going to the park.

As for the age thing, in a year depending on your plans, I hope you are off to college and the amount of books you will have for all your classes will allow easy camouflage.

Also look to see what your local and extended library has. Not always the best selection (devil worshiping bastards steal the books too often :-P) but you should be able to find something decent. In addition, your parents I am sure can think of worse places for you to spend a few afternoons.

So don’t give me (it’s too hard) nothing in this path is easy, well a few things will be, but the hard things are the most rewarding. The easy things you will think of as cool and move on without thought.

Where there is will, there is a way. The big thing is respecting your household (not directly lying about anything) and yet doing your thing. You know your house and what you can and can’t do, respect it. The rules are there to protect it, and in attempt to raise you in the best way they know how.

But don’t ever complain about the work, you can ask if anyone knows easy ways of doing something or a different way…but learning that will take work. Decent work ethic is probably something that will carry you further then any other skill set.

At the same time “I say laziness is the mother of all inventions”…I am not nearly as lazy as I try to be.

The work involved is no problem, this is so interesting I'll actually enjoy it. And Christianity ranges from people who I can talk pretty openly to and not be lectured and alienated all the way to Jack Chick. 3-4 years is nothing, I know. But at my age it just seems like it is. And I would never LIE to my parents. I never flat-out LIE. I have my little underhanded dirty mindgame I-win-on-a-technicality way of doing things that just barely gets you off the hook with all limbs attached. Like sewing extra out-of-plain-sight pockets on the inside of my backpack to stash various items in which I will do when I'm off to college next year. Over the next few years I guess I'll be studyng and maybe tinkering with the idea of just creating a 'character' and pouring energy into it since that's the closest I can come to the David-Neel/Phillip experiments. Oh and the libraries around here barely have ghost stories. Well with my questions answered, a new goal, and college prep around the corner I may not be posting for a while so just thanks to everyone who helped me I don't feel like a clueless noob anymore. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap.gif)