11 points in a circle, I know of only 7, what are the other 4? Options

Ok, a "friend" of mine and I were talking about magic and circles, and he brought up the eleven points in a circle. Now, I'm a solitary, not being benefited with a teacher. All of the points I could think up would be the 4 elements, up, down, and the center, for a total of 7. While I know that there are really 360 points in a circle, that's not in a metaphysical sense. He did say he couldn't say anything else, because he's under oath and a 2nd degree person in paganism. But he did say something about the 4 "normal" points being positively aligned, and the other 4 were negatively aligned. I've never heard anything about this before in really anything I've ever experienced, and I was wondering if anyone had any information on it. Is it a valid practice, these 11 points?

Thanks all
Blackstaff

This post has been edited by blackstaff: Sep 29 2005, 01:24 PM

Well, first of all, claiming to be "under oath" due to being a "2nd degree pagan" is, as far as I concerned, a load of dog doo. If I met him, I'd probably end up slapping him across the face, but that's just me.

If he's also claiming that the 4 elements have negative aspects, then so do the other three. Making a total of 14 points, instead of 11. One cannot have one without the other. Some people I know do incorporate the negative aspects of each point, to maintain a recognition of balance, and for certain spells or rites, etc. Majority keep it simple and stick to the 7. And technically, there are 5 elements in the magickal community, your "standard" 4, and Spirit. But alot of people have taken notice that Spirit cannot be named either negative or positive, so with his supposed claims, that only makes 10. With using both polarities, that makes 13.

And then! Point "up" would be only considered postive, for it reaches for the celestial heavens, angels, divas, etc etc...Point "down" would only be considered negative, for it delves into the chaos, the "evil", etc etc...

Thinking out loud, I have come to the solid conclusion that he's completely full of it, and you should disregard what he says as foolish.

Disclaimer: My opinion, not a claim that should be set in stone. And I could have missed some sect or practice that very well might have 11 points. But I've studied paganism/Wicca/Celtic/Witchcraft for alot of years, and NEVER have seen that claim.

Namaste

That's what I was thinking too, that his oath thing is just a load of bull~~~~. But I digress.
One thing I thought, but never put in practice was that the opposite of Spirit was Void. But then, if Spirit is all AND nothing, then it's also Void in itself.
Now, theoretically, would "negitive fire, earth, air, and water" have a seperate name? I do a bit with transmutation and when I mix, say, fire and negitive energy, I get ash, air and negitive energy, vacuum, etc... Do they have different names like those?

From my experience, their only names. As long as you understand their energy, it'll be just as effective. Names are given only to differentiate outside of feeling and understanding their energy and vibrational patterns.

If you choose to give them names, then by all means! It's completely your preference.

I have worked with one group that used the Quarters, Cross-Quarters, Above, Below, and Spirit...

That equals 11... Of course, they weren't looking at the cross quarters as negative aspects of the elements, they were looking at them as the places where the elements blend... sort of like sub-elements.

Anyway... there are groups that utilize these 11 points, but I agree with everyone above that this information being restricted by oath is a bunch of hoo-hah.

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i have to agree with doll house kitty i would put your friends words under the light as it were if he is using some sort of number magic or just using the 11 points as a means of a certain ritual or "power booster" i would understand a bit more but it seems like hes trying to just show off if so he'll most likely grow out of it after all we never really start learning untill we admit we know nothing.

while the different stars are used for different things no circle needs to be any certain way circles are used for protection if a ritual normally uses a 5 pointed star and you want to "up it" to a 6 pointed star and every name of God known to man id say go for it circles should be used well and just because your friend says its one way doesnt mean it is my best advise in magic is to check check and double check never take anything someone says as absolute truth its unwise


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this likely has nothing to do with the 11 points your friend was refering to...
but its an interesting system nevertheless.

i apologize if this is considered off topic... lol

The Balinese universe is organised according to fundamental principles of classification. It includes directions, colours and numbers. There are 11 directions. These are the eight compass points, plus the centre and up and down.

Each direction has a sound, a colour, a written symbol and a weapon. They are linked to the nine gods, their consorts and organs of the body. lswara is white and east; Brahma red and south; Mahadewa yellow and west; Wisnu black and north. Brahma's consort or wife is Laksmi, Wishnu's is Saraswati and Siwa's is Durga. The goddesses are regarded as their husbands' sakti (spiritual power). All the gods merge into Siwa, who constitutes a higher unity, at the centre, with mixed colours.

They are also linked to days of the five day week and numbers. East with Umaris and number 5. South with Paing and number 9. West with Pon and number 7. North with Wage and number 4. The centre with Klion and number 8.

The enormous Eka Dasa Rudra sacrifice (see the article entitled Balinese Ceremonies) was structured on the 11 directions. The animals were assigned to particular directions. However the animals of the central group were further sub-divided into an 11-fold structure. The animals of the outer circle included white cow, goose, duck (east), goat (southeast), cow (south), dog (southwest), buffalo (west), deer (northwest), black monkey and garuda (north), and horse (northeast). The bulk of the animals fell into the inner circle and were divided according to their nature. For example, birds other than fowls were placed in the northeast, footed reptiles in the west, fishes in the north, creatures that crawled (centipede and snake) in the nadir, beetles in the zenith, flies and hornets in the centre.

Just for the record, void is another name for spirit. It is used in the Japnese elements. Aether and Akasha are used by the wesern society and the hindu people.