Malphas (and Other Goetics) And Deception Options

I have a question about some Goetics. I know Malphas has it, and I believe some others, in their descriptions say something along the lines of "if you make any sacrifices to him he will receive it kindly and willingly but he will deceive him that doth it."

My question is first, what do they mean by deceive? Is it something that would be an issue, any point in summoning them if they'll deceive? And do they only deceive you if you make the sacrifice?

Giving sacrifices to the spirits puts you at their disposal. The sacrifice can be anything - livestock or dead meat, incense, libations, even services - but no matter what you give, it allows the spirit to take the advantage. It is showing the spirit that you are willing to meet its needs before you expect it to satisfy yours, which is the substance of demonolatry.

The spirit who receives the sacrifice may agree to do as you say, then fail to do anything at all once given license to depart. It may fulfill your wishes in a way that is contrary to your original intentions; or it may do exactly as you request but in such a way as to benefit itself, turning your goals to its gains. None of these are necessarily harmful or dangerous, but neither are they the marks of a "powerful" magician.

The two kings with two attendants require "Sacrifices, Offerings, and Gifts," presumably for their servants. There are differences between these three things, though I can only speculate on what the differences might be. It should be enough for Paimon to offer beer and bread, but for Belial I could not say.

None of the spirits should trusted about the least thing until they have proven themselves to your complete satisfaction. Do not believe they will (or can) do what they say, and do not believe what they tell you has happened or will happen, or anything they teach about any subject whatsoever. Make them prove it, and be ready to recall them, bind them, and torture them with the curses if they do not make good on promises or if it looks like they were full of crap.

You might wonder, "Why bother, then?" and that is a well-warranted question that deserves some thought before you act. It is probably good to provide yourself with a ood answer before attempting any sort of magic, especially with these spirits who are everywhere described as wicked and stubborn.

As a matter of perspective, though, it is common to deal with all sorts of people who are are not trustworthy yet who are needed in a professional capacity... ever buy a used car? I think of it in the same sense... you know the guy is going to try to rip you off in one way or another, especially if you "give in" on something or another, and it's best to recognize the fact and deal with him accordingly.

As a matter of perspective, though, it is common to deal with all sorts of people who are are not trustworthy yet who are needed in a professional capacity... ever buy a used car? I think of it in the same sense... you know the guy is going to try to rip you off in one way or another, especially if you "give in" on something or another, and it's best to recognize the fact and deal with him accordingly.

I assumed you'd answer, heh.

I think the analogy you gave helped put a lot of it into place. When dealing with a used car salesman, knowing they will try to rip you off, and their methods, are the first steps to preventing it, and any inch you give them, is an inch they will take.

Thanks you gave me a good thought to chew over.

The wariness toward spirits is not something exclusive to traditional or ancient magic. I sometimes see people who want to treat more equitably with these or other spirits, especially those of supposed evil origin. Many seem to equate modern occultism with demonolatry, or approach it as such.

For the reasons stated before, I feel that this is dangerous, but to make a point on this sbject in regard to modern magic, here are a few quotes from Crowley:

9. Let him beware of the thousand subtle attacks and deceptions that he
will experience, carefully testing the truth of all with whom he speaks.
-Liber VI

The Magick Sword is the analytical faculty; directed against any demon it attacks his complexity.
-Liber IV

In direct opposition to what has been said here, I try to give the entities I work with the benefit of the doubt. I've had good experiences with some of the bigger and more well-known daemons (demon is too christian for me) that others here (like you Imperial Arts) have had trouble with. I think the reason for that is simply because I don't look at them like used car salesmen. They're very old beings and I think they simply don't like to be pushed around and when they are, they act as "evil" as the magician expects them to be.

That's why if it says in a book that it will trick you, ask it if that's true. Sometimes they'll tell you that a passage in one of the books is complete BS, other times they'll say something unexpected. I've not been lied to by any daemon as far as I can tell (I usually ask about things that can easily be verified), and generally speaking they're much more trustworthy than most humans.

For the record I'll say that Malphas is one I'm unfamiliar with, but I've worked with several (and continue to work with) that, according to their descriptions, will trick the magician. It's just not true with those so I don't see why it should be assumed that's true of this entity.

This post has been edited by altpath: Mar 25 2008, 10:01 PM

It's amusing that you bring up these topics on a thread mentioning Malphas.

I don't like the idea of demons as "evil spirits" either. Frankly I think it's absurd, and have similar thoughts about the theologic suppositions behind systems like Goetia and the other grimoires. My strict traditionalist practice disturbs the heretics; and the ambivalent approach to spirituality baffles the clergy.

I expected to find myself more or less correct in regard to Malphas (see the Koran on Marut, etc..) , and instead found something that could not be adequately described as anything other than a "fallen angel." Having no rational place reserved in my mind for angels, fallen or otherwise, this was a little disconcerting. I expect these things to be spirits, godlike intelligences maligned by ridiculous orthodoxy, but with Malphas I was confronted by what for all the world seemed the classic vision of the vanquished rebel angel.

I am pleased to say that my instructions to the spirit have been followed satisfactorily: an island resort being built in the Caribbean, another new venue in Hawaii purchased and staffed, and more than 200 specialist artisans from many countries have been secured in an astonishingly short time. If bound the spirits must obey!

I expected to find myself more or less correct in regard to Malphas (see the Koran on Marut, etc..) , and instead found something that could not be adequately described as anything other than a "fallen angel." Having no rational place reserved in my mind for angels, fallen or otherwise, this was a little disconcerting. I expect these things to be spirits, godlike intelligences maligned by ridiculous orthodoxy, but with Malphas I was confronted by what for all the world seemed the classic vision of the vanquished rebel angel.

I've not had a chance to read the Koran or any other religious books in a long time. English is my first language and I can't really get ahold of those books in english where I'm living at the moment.

I'm not saying it wouldn't happen that angels could "fall" but I don't really believe that about most daemons. I've read about a few of the darker ones like Bileth being one that needs to be constrained and you have to be extremely brave, yadda yadda yadda, but that particular daemon appeared to me in a fantastic and beautiful vision once (the only time I've really tried to get to know it so far) and I have been told since then by several powerful magicians (that work with Bileth) that my vision was very accurate concerning it's true nature. It was not a fallen angel that I saw, that's for sure. I've learned the same thing about a few others, and they're not really "fallen" in the traditional judeo-christian meaning.
Again, I don't know anything about Malphas but I wouldn't be surprised either way if he was a fallen angel or something completely different. If one goes into a conversation with an entity with a pre-conceived notion about it then chances are our own mind will give us the answers to the questions that are asked and not the daemon.

I am pleased to say that my instructions to the spirit have been followed satisfactorily: an island resort being built in the Caribbean, another new venue in Hawaii purchased and staffed, and more than 200 specialist artisans from many countries have been secured in an astonishingly short time. If bound the spirits must obey!

That's very impressive. I've found pacts work just as well as "binding" but without any negative consequences. I'm not sure if you've had trouble with giving the charge like others do, but a well thought out pact works damn well.