official complaint, why always Goetia? Options

Greetings!

I find the Lemegeton truly amazing, and I look forward to working from it in the near future.

There are the spirits of the Goetia, Theurgia, and Paulina. And as I understand, these are the lesser, more demonic spirits, the spirits of the directions, and the spirits of the celestial vault, respectively.

My complaint is that all I've ever heard of were people's summonings of the Goetic spirits. They seem to be totally in the limelight, while the other spirits seem to be marginalized and neglected completely. I say seem to, because I'm sure that, with all the intelligent and mature magickans out there and on this forum, that the Paulina and Theurgia are not truly neglected.

But what gives? Is it just that demons are simply more exciting, infamous, and popular, and that no one really cares to hear or discuss the others?

What are your opinons on the matter?

Good complaint (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Basically what was translated by Mathers and easy to find on any boostore shelf is what most people are going to work from. It is only a smal percentage that go beyond that. Also, with 72 Daemons, well that can keep one busy for quite a number of years! <g>
I have also worked with the GV, GG, Theurgia a bit etc. I generaly find most of my evoations to be quite personal though and don't post about them much. I have recently posted a bunch of healing experiences, but they were with Buer from the Goetia LOL. Hey if you find a spirit that you work well with, why go off looking for others for that task?
Have you worked with some of the other grims? What have your experiences been?

Athena

Complaints?
Dear Lord NO! Now we'll be inundated with questions about all the other spirits in the other texts... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) Personally, I think that you are right...the Goetic demons are far more thrilling than the aerial whisperings of the directional winds...*sigh* or, at least, this is what usually captivates the interests up front. This has afforded some elbow room/breathing space for the rest of the Works.
I've had fantastic results with the spirits of the compass points. These have a 'good' and 'evil' nature and are very interesting, to say the least! I heartily recommend working with them! They can be as capricious as sylphs but are usually, IMHO, very reliable. Now before we're swamped with the tides of inquisition, please tale the time to read up on them first. Frankly, I'll be more closemouthed about these than ever seeing that they and I are working together on a number of projects.
Evoking Magii frequently forget that these beings/entities exist. They are akin to djinn and angels, bright (and dark) stars in the spirit world.
Here's an idea to play with, all you budding mages, what other uses does the Mirror(and the Triangle of the Arte) have besides helping to manifest Goetic/Angelic discourse? I hope to hear some inspired suggestions..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif)

Hmph, the Theorgia Goetia entities didnt seem to like me as much as others I have wored with LOL
Bym,thereare more uses for the skrying mirror and trianglethen just evoking spirits? No way! I would have neversuspeted! <g>
So how come the mirror is round and not triagle shaped?
Why a triangle and not a square?
What will I get if I put my cel biology textbook into th triangle?
Well atriangle drawn on apiece of paper work?
well you did say to ask questions <g>
OH I kow *puts up hand* you can use them to put annoying roomates in ad when you get back they are no onger there right? LOL
More seriously though, quite a good topic for contempation and some thinking on!!

Athena

IMHO, the majority of people on earth here are spiritually poor since it definately not on the top of our list since we still have to feed ourself, families to feed, child to educate and finance, opposite sex to charm, and other mundane physical needs and desires which is so damn close to our skins.

Why do we seek the more spiritual achievements when our worldly needs has not been fulfilled? I reckon, most people had asked this question when they approach the daemons. People are also lazy, constantly look for instant gratifications and demons can help get the job done on our behalf without getting our hands dirty.

The Goetia offers this "instant gratifications", and it is somehow akin to fast food industry don't you think? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

You spoke of a mature magicians. Now these are damn rare. A "mature" mage IMHO, is either lost faith to the society/damn broke/got nothing exciting to live for in this physical world OR someone who has fullfilled and grow beyond his/her physical needs - then spiritual achievements is - needed. We simply creatures of needs and Maslow already charted the hierarchies (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif)

IMHO, the majority of people on earth here are spiritually poor since it definately not on the top of our list since we still have to feed ourself, families to feed, child to educate and finance, opposite sex to charm, and other mundane physical needs and desires which is so damn close to our skins.

Why do we seek the more spiritual achievements when our worldly needs has not been fulfilled? I reckon, most people had asked this question when they approach the daemons. People are also lazy, constantly look for instant gratifications and demons can help get the job done on our behalf without getting our hands dirty.

The Goetia offers this "instant gratifications", and it is somehow akin to fast food industry don't you think? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

You spoke of a mature magicians. Now these are damn rare. A "mature" mage IMHO, is either lost faith to the society/damn broke/got nothing exciting to live for in this physical world OR someone who has fullfilled and grow beyond his/her physical needs - then spiritual achievements is - needed. We simply creatures of needs and Maslow already charted the hierarchies (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif)

The instant gratification and fast food aspect of the Demons is only one approach. There are many approaches. One can just call them up and get a lot of things done, or one can start to look a little deeper and see how else the demons may be worked with... But like you said, most folks are lazy and want instant gratification, so hard work, knowing yourself etc. isn't what most folks delve into.

Athena

Unfortunately, I have yet to actually do any evocation. I am still working on the LBRP, and I plan to do that alone for a couple months, then include the Middle Pillar, and just work on those for about a year....then include the LBRH, and so on.

Confucius say, many small steps bring man farther down the road than a few great leaps. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cc_arabia.gif)

Anyway, I am fascinated by evocation. And while I would certainly utilize a Goetic spirit to get something done when all else fails, or when myself or those I care about are in a dire situation, I will try and not be tempted into an overtly Faustian relationship with them. As a species, we are addicted to instant gratification and, owing to our technology and present culture, have become even more so and more materialistic as well.

We are all Faust. We can't live without our electrical slaves making everything convenient for us. Whether we're a culture of debauched sorcerers used to being served and pampered by spirits, or a culture served and pampered by technology and industry, it's all the same.

That being said, I do belive it is possible to meet one's physical needs and desires, and develop spiritually. Can't the former be an expression of the latter? I guess it all just depends on intention.

Now I'm way off topic! Anyway, I can understand about evocations being personal. But it is just nice to hear that the other spirits of Solomon are not being neglected.

Oh why oh why do other magicians not take the sensible approach to eocation, you know, do the prep work first? LOL Well at least when you do get to eocation you will reallykick butt at it!

Onlysome use evocation for instant grtification, whilste others do not. There are may manyother reasons to evoke a spirit! Magical teaching, spiritual deveopment, and yes of course working with them to get such things as better luck in life (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think a major part of the overwhelming emphasis of the 1st book is because most often it is the first one someone uses.

The classical grimoires tend to monopolize your time because even though the majority of them are rather short they are complete systems of magic in and of themselves.

Whichever one I choose to be involved in I find that just when you think you have got it figured out a whole new layer appears. I only came to realize lately that although the Ars Goetia has a largely Malkuth, "baser" feel it has all the other Sephira and ideas wrapped up in it.

The alchemical associations of the planets, the astrological correspondences, the Choirs of Angels, gematria, divination. the planetary hours, I'm gonna run out of breath.

What's pretty nutty is think about the size of the modern tomes that contain those same elements and the sheer size and filler that they throw in.

The majority of the people I have met in person that have attempted to mold the Goetia into a working, personally-understood idea become so involved in the other aspects of the work that they don't have the time or just forget about "seeking hidden treesures".

Usually if you want money you give up after the first 20 unsuccessful attempts.

I don't have a problem with evocation for money or material magick in general but I find that as long as I have food, I'm too busy to notice whether I'm rich or not.

There's not much more emphasis on money or sex than other grimoires but it is stated much more explicitly, so naturally that's all we can see.

We are all Faust. We can't live without our electrical slaves making everything convenient for us. Whether we're a culture of debauched sorcerers used to being served and pampered by spirits, or a culture served and pampered by technology and industry, it's all the same.

I agree with you that sometimes this is what we want but I have yet to see anyone sit in their boxers and have sacks of gold and the Swedish Bikini Team show up. One can meet one's physical needs and grow spiritually. I think the Goetia and most other magical practices act almost as an amplifier to what you are already trying to do. If it wasn't there at all in the beginning it won't be there afterwards.

"You can't make the philosophers stone, without using gold."

This post has been edited by chaoscrowley37: Feb 12 2006, 01:44 PM

I think a major part of the overwhelming emphasis of the 1st book is because most often it is the first one someone uses.

True, and it also has detailed descriptions of each spirit's "office".

Already the 2nd book, the Theurgia-Goetia, has almost nothing written about the uses of each of the spirits. I've evoked a few of them out of curiosity, and I'm still not sure what to make of it. Got some results from one after the 1st evocation, but then nothing after the 2nd. Odd. They are surprisingly strong though, I'd say much stronger in "presence" than the Goetias.

I've found all books to be intersting reads, but I have never or plan to ever work with any of those spirits.

Oh why oh why do other magicians not take the sensible approach to eocation, you know, do the prep work first?

Because leaping out of a plane without a parachute is a lot more exhilirating than with? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

That would be my theory, anywayz.