Liar, Liar..., ...not a magician or maybe...? Options

This idea come to my head when I was reading this thread: http://www.sacred-magick.org/index.php?showtopic=6199 It was originally about spell wording but it quickly changed into a discussion about how the magician's psyche (like subconscious feeling of guilt or his/her morality) affect the results of his/her magick.

So.... I've come across an opinion that a magician should never lie. Not because of some rules, fear of Hell or because truthfulness is a rightous thing, but because telling lies teaches subconsciousness that not all the magician's words are reality - and vice versa: always telling the truth supposedly teaches the subconscious mind that every word the magician utters is or becomes reality, which should make their magick more effective.

Taken how importart the subconscious mind (and its attitude) is when it comes to casting spells, do you think the author of this theory is right? Do you think it's worth the effort?(which is probably VAST - not lying in cultures requiring dozens of white lies a day is quite an accomplishment, I believe) And one more question... Do you lie? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I realize that there's no use asking 'regular' people about it, because it's a well-known fact (?) that everybody lies. However, occultist are not 'regular people', as far as I know. We're much more willing to completely change our habits if they prove to hamper our development, right? And, for instance, person who has been following, say, the ceremonial magick path (I mean Golden Dawn rituals, (self-)initiations, the Great Work etc.) is not like any non-magickal person. This "Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel" is still quite abstract for me so I can only guess it changes human behaviour...
OK, it's out of pure curiousity, but is there someone who claims that he or she NEVER lies anymore...?

First of all, I must say that I applaud your coming to this conclusion, because it's a very often unspoken and overlooked element of magical development.

Quitting lying has more than one effect on the subconscious - first, as you say, it teaches the subconscious that everything you say is true, so when you say something will happen, etc., with the proper intention and focus on the act itself of course, it will happen. It's a cumulative effect as well.

The second effect is that you become more sensitive to falsehood - you start to just 'know' when something isn't true, or when the truth is being concealed more often. This is also a cumulative effect.

Cumulative effect means the more it happens, the more it will happen.

I no longer lie in the traditional sense - I don't white lies, I don't lie to conceal, I don't lie to avoid trouble on my part or someone else's. If I don't want to cause harm by telling the truth, I just keep my mouth shut or explain why I would rather not say anything on the matter.

Now, that said, it's more complicated than that when you get down into it. It's also important not to make assumptions, or to pass judgment on others as well, internally or externally. Because in doing this, we teach the subconscious that we don't need to recognize or discover truth, we can just paste our most logical reasoning onto something and that will suffice.

That part I'm still working on, but I think it is probably all together one of the most difficult tasks you can undertake. Not because telling the truth is difficult - most of the time it really isn't - but because its part of human culture across the globe, excepting some small tribal groups (so they claim), so it's a part of the racial consciousness almost, to lie to ourselves and others.

One last note - the most difficult and overlooked aspect, I believe, of taking up this kind of practice with our words, is correcting every lie we've ever told. It's like storing up psychic batteries over the course of your life that gain interest. The longer the lie has persisted, the more power you get from it when you correct it. Of course, it can be a tumultuous process, but then, cracking open a dam isn't exactly a gentle process either.

peace

I certainly can't argue with what has been said. I worked in retail for 22 yrs and found that if I told the truth to the customers although they may not like what they hear they usually appreciated it... the bosses didn't always, but what could they do.

I have the problem of being too honest, added to the problem that if it needs to be said it comes out. So I come across to many as having no compassion.
I am not as diplomatic as Vagrant Dreamer, so it is a problem.

As Vagrant Dreamer, I am still working on the judgment thing, I can catch myself at times though, I guess it's a start.

The lie of omission may be the most difficult, in the center I was part of for around 15yrs. That was the most prevalent, it made me very sensitive to it.

I will say that I had a reputation for honesty, but how did they put it... I did not mince my words, I was respected, feared, and hated all at the same time. Good thing I liked to work alone. How ever when there was a problem weather it was inventory, or sexual harassment I was the one they came to first. Most of the time it just kept people away, I was there for work not a social club. So it can be a problem in the work place and socially but the friends you do have will be most likely real friends. If I were to act the good o'l boy at work it would have made me a hypocrite.

In a day where not telling the truth is the norm these were two refreshing posts.

Krell