Envocation of Forneus Options

I recently performed two rituals to evoke a goetic spirit "Fornues" and my both atempts failed. Anybody know what's the reason; here's what I did. I began with a LBRP ritual and then start my conjurations. I did the 1st conjuration couple times nothing appeared, so I start reciting the second one, it didn't work either. The only thing I didn't do is "the bornless ritual". If anybody know the reason my conjuration isn't working, please let me know.....(IMG:style_emoticons/default/help.gif)
Your help would be greatly appreciated.....

Greetings sleepyman!

I've been aquainted with the Goetia before....there are a few questions that I have for you. Are you using the Mathers translation with the notes by Crowley? Did you use the Enochian conjurations listed therein? Are you using the full circle setup? Are you attempting a materialization in the physical or the astral? What tools are you using? and by no means last, how long did you prepare yourself and your environment for this operation? Whew! That was exhausting! *grin* If I'm coming on to this with too much intensity you may inquire the Moderator Athena who has much experience in this area. She is very helpful and has some great ideas about the Goetic spirits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/egypt1.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif) Bym! thanks for you reply...

Yes , I am using Mathers edited by crowley "The Geotia, The Lessor Key of Solomon the King". I am using enochian conjuration that is in english on page 81. I don't know what you mean by full circle setup; if you meant the way it's described in the book then no, I construct a cirle without any hexagons in it and without any pentagon outside. I checked couple other forums and they were saying it's not neccessary, you construct these in your mind durring the LBRP............I am not using anykind of weapons except the pen that I used to draw a sigil and a triangle. I am not using any prerequisite that are described in the book on pg 80. Again I was told it's not neccessary. I use essence but placed outside the sigil, I am unable to use charcoal beacuse of a smoke detector.............. Again as I said before, I missed the "Bornless ritual" , " The adoration at the bath", and "The adoration at the induing of the vestment...............................Durring my ritual all I heard is noises from the roof, cadle flicker only once, so I read the addressing spirit upon his coming and welcoming spirit, and got no answer. I commandeth to appear in a circle and didn't see anything in the scrying mirror. so, I just made a demand and banish it. next day i sacrifice something as I said it in the ritual. Let see what happens.. if he can hear the conjuration and know that someone is summoning him, then offcourse he can hear the demand and recieve the sacrifice as well.............................................----------------------------------------------------------------- Bym, did you ever envoke any entity, which method did you use. did you have any success in evocation............................... I used twice The Necronomican (spell book) to invoke the spirit, and both time my wishes came true. May be It's my luck OR necronomican book really works. I don't know why people talk shit about necronomican. what you think did you ever tried it........

My first question would be, did you wait long enough? Sometimes they take 1/2 an hour to an hour to really show up.
Also, physical sounds around and candles flickering is a good sign! Did you say hello and wait for a reply? Some folks that do evocation look for such things as sudden candle flickers with no brease and knockings or tappings. If that is what you got, next time you could ask Forneus "if that is you, please let me know by afffecting the candles, or making noise again"
How much scrying practice have you had? All too often folks actually get amazing stuff when skrying, but are too used to blowing it off as nothing.
Did you use a traingle for the being to manifest in? Did you put your mirror in the triangle or somehwere else? Have you been practicing magic for more than 6 months? (hey I have to ask, you never know).
Yeah and all of Bym's questions :>
Also, when I first started evocation, the impressions were really light and ambiguous, but after doing evocation every week for awhile, they grew stronger and stronger, so just more practice always helps.
Have you had trouble evocing other entities, or just Forneus?
One thing that I have found to work (but I hear is dangerous apparently LOL) is to hold the being in question's seal and let them know that in say 8 hours you are going to do an evocation of them for such and such purpose at such and such time. This seems to really help.
Athena

Oh yeah, and if I were you, I'd listen to any advice Bym gives before 99% of folks in other forums LOL.
Personally I just take the battery out of my smoke detector during incense burnings, then REMEMBER to put it back in after!
THe bornless ritual REALLY helps for your state of mind, and for the working.
I have heard of quite a few people that did not perceive the entity but still had their request come to be, so results would indicate that Forneus did show up.
Have you read a few books on the topic? Apparently you have read either DMK's modern magick or Konstantinos' summoning spirits if you are using the LBRP with it <g> A few reads of both of the Keys of Solomon really help as well!
Athena

Hey Athena,

I waited for almost 2 hours. when I saw a candle flicker, I asked the spirit to manifest itself in the circle inside the triangle. The Scrying mirror was outside the triangle, and I was seeing the circle through the mirror. Well I asked, are you FORNEUS, no answer!.....................About the smoke detector, I can take out the battery but it has a electric backup. Let say if I take it out right now, it will start beeping every 15 seconds till I put the batery back in.................I don't have any experience in scrying, that was the first time I used the scrying mirror. I been praticing goetia for about a month or two................ I am not using any other book for this ritual. I read at couple places that whatever magic you practice, you must start with LBRP ritual after closing the circle. Well, you folks have much more experience. What's your advice? how much practice it takes for the entity to show up physically. Also the incense stick I used has a really good smell but the next day, my room smells like, there's a dead animal in my room (man really stinks). I had to leave my window opened for two days for the smell to leave.

Greetings!
Hmmm....I've noticed that some incense decays leaving bad smells after though I'd run a test...burn some in the same room without any magic performed and see about the lingering odor and burn some in another room and also note the results.
If neither one decay leaving a bad odor, then you mayhaps have actually got somethimg to answer during your evocation!
When reading the Enochian were you just reading or were you vibrating the words? In order for evocations to be effective you must really be a part of the ritual. (I'm of the old school...I didn't/don't use Enochian with the Goetia but prefer using it as it was initially intended...) The more you involve yourself in the preps the better your results are. I'd suggest a turn with Vassago in the scrying mirror to start, he/she/it is very responsive and is a good beginning... Pray, ask away! This intrigues me though I don't wish to step on any toes, as it were... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/egypt1.gif)

Hey Bym,
You told me in your last post to turn to VASSAGO. Is he easy to summon. There got to be some reason to summon a spirit, what should I ask for when I summon him. Any idea what kind of offers he takes in return. Is that spirit follow the master command w/o delay?-------------------- Bym, you asked me in you last post, do I read or vibrate the conjuration? well, when I recite the conjurations I do vibrate the God/Godesses names with much more force with a mental picture in my mind. Also, I was wondering, what conjuration you recite when evoking a spirit. Is that one more effective than the geotic one? If it is: would you like to share with us? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/5.gif)

Greetings Sleepyman!
I suggested Vassago for a number of reasons...
1/ he/she/it is of a relatively benign nature and thus is more responsive in that there are alternate conjurations that can be used outside of those of the Goetia to summon him.
2/ Seeing as you are new to this, using Vassago will give you more confidence with the eade of his evocation.
3/ You were using a scrying mirror to initially evoke into (a wise beginning) and Vassago responds well to the scrying mirror....
4/ he/she/it shows you most things, it seems like the right place to start!

I follow the Solomonic path when dealing with the Goetia. I suggest that you pick up or download a copy of the non-Crowleyised version and look at it. You see, when I first started this path there weren't all the books and subsequent 'short cuts' that you(all) have today... I made my tools by learning and getting into blacksmithing, learned about incenses and herbs, made my own ritual vestments and learned alot of Hebrew and Latin! Granted, with some of the older formulae, you were more likely to bore the spirits into manifestation! LOL! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
As far as any particular conjuration that I've used, yes, I have found over the years that some are more efficacious than others...and no, I won't be misled into giving away all my secrets just to satisfy your itch! Work at it!
Now, I've asked you to perform a small test...have you done so? What were the results?

Hey Athena,

I waited for almost 2 hours. when I saw a candle flicker, I asked the spirit to manifest itself in the circle inside the triangle. The Scrying mirror was outside the triangle, and I was seeing the circle through the mirror. Well I asked, are you FORNEUS, no answer

How long did you practice magic before you started with evocation? If not that long, that could be why it is taking some time to get the manifestations/visions. Yeah, what Bym said, get the original Key of Solomon, not some authors watered down rendition thereof, well unless the GD is your path (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
So you are in a circle, have a triangle outside the circle, then have the skrying mirror seperate? I usually (when working with the Goetia beings) put the mirror inside the triangle if I am going to be scrying. I'm sure there are other ways as well though. When calling Enochian entities, I put the skrying device on my alter...
Also, physical voice is hard to get, especially for the newbie. A pendalum used for yes/no really helps. As does going by feelings and impressions. Did you feel a presence?
Also, many practitioners find that what they requested comes to be even if they did not "see" the entitity in question. Perhaps try an evocation, request something feasable (out loud of course) and state the reward you are willing to give. Use a pendalum for yes/no, then give the reward when the task is complete.
Odd about the dead animal smell, I usually get pleasant smells after an evocation.
Best of luck with this, and feel free to ask any questions you may have, looks like Bym and I enjoy answering these sorts of questions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Athena

Another couple of quick questions, did you put the entitie's seal in the triangle?
Do you do daily rituals of your system of magic?
Do you meditate or use a method to get into a good altered state prior to evocation?
Incense really does help, I have never had charcoal incense set off a smoke detector, mine could usually tell the diff. Maybe turn off that breaker switch if you really want to use incense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Athena

Greeting Athena,
I put the spirit sigil inside the triangle, and my triangle is not that big. If I put the scrying mirror in it, it will cross the bounderies of the triangle. I just made a bigger triangle, and soon will try another ritual and will let you know the outcome. Your pendulum idea seems really good, and I definitely gonna use it next time. Athena, I do meditate but not for too long. Durring my ritual, I don't see a thing/shadow, just hear a noise from the roof while reciting a conjuration and one flicker that I saw when I ask to show his presence, the candle was outside the triangle which a spirit can't cross, so seems like to me it was a coincidence ............................................................... Bym....I didn't test the incense sticks yet, after I test it I'll let you know..................
well thanks for your help Athena and Bym ....................................................................

forgot to ask you, who is the writer of the origional king of solomon, and is that available online at amazon?

Sleepyman-
The Library has a pdf section with a subgroup of Grimoires, check it out and also the Ceremonial Magic sub, especially Israel Regardie and any Aurum Solis stuff...Happy reading! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mf_bookread.gif)

Greeting Bym/Athena,
Is it neccessary to have a King of Solomon Seal on a calfskin? or we can use anything (paper/cardboard/etc.). Another question I got to ask is: I don't use a white vestment for the ritual instead use a black; Is that works or I must use white. Please respond as soon as you get a chance.
Thanks!

Bym/Athena,
I forgot to ask you, the king of solomon ring should be on paper/cardboard or on some metal. is it on sale over the internet? it says in the book that it should be held before the face of the exorcist..... what they mean by that? is it on the forhead if not then where? I found the previous book of solomon over the internet in pdf format. I can see now that my planetary timmings were wrong. I order the calfskin parchment and soon it gonna be here. I have a vestment that has a yellowish white color, guess it would work. the king of solomon ring is the only problem, which i made on cardboard to use in the last two ritual but not sure it would be alright (need your recom.). when you read this please response as soon as you get a chance.
Thanks!

I'm thinking about a few answers to your questions, but you still have not answered my questions to you yet? The reason I ask them is to find out your experience level and how you work. It is about impossible to answer the questions otherwise.
As far as the ring goes. Well you are going to do an important advanced magical operation with a powerful spirit. Would you want the ring to be out of paper or metal? Silver is not that expensive and is very easy to come by.
I am presently working with a friend of mine who makes rings to put some out (since the only other site that does made me an Enochian ring, charged me way too much and the thing came crooked!!). Contructing the Solomonic ring yourself wouldn't be that difficult with some silver, some silver solder (or jewlery glue if you are not that good with solder) some tin snips, a file, and a scriber (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Btw, where are you getting the parchment? I have found "parchment" in the form of drum heads, but that is about it. I haven't found proper parchment for years. I tend to use raw leather, metal or other supplies instead.
Athena

I just have to add this short rant... (not just to sleepyman, to everyone)
How come everyone wants to embark into magic, then take as many shortcuts as possible? Does no one have enough money to purchase metal? Can people not find leather/parchment? Can no one make a robe or purchase one? Doesn't anyone ever purchase books anymore instead of just reading the pdf online?
It seems like if this trend keeps up then magic may get more and more watered down over time. Eventually it will just be "ah I have a pen and paper, time to make the 72 goetia seals, oh nm, I will just print them out." And "I am not going to make my goetia circle on canvas, I am just going to put it into my online game instead". <sigh> Now even I'm feeling old LOL!
Athena

Exactly Athena. Magick was supposedly an art, where some do it with passion and other's with specific results in mind. I think people's motivation in doing it will reflect how many shortcuts they'll take. The later don't usually last long.

Athena, It's not about the money, I searched couple times over the internet and unable to find any amulet. last week, I found only one site who do make, what I need and yes I already ordered it. Here the address of that website ........ http://www.magicwicca.com/files/solomon.htm........ I found parchment on ebay. Its a calfskin leather (creamish color) the dealer I guess is in texas and imports these from Asia. As far as my experience, I got that book 1.5 mos. ago. My first two was a failure beacuse of the lack of knowledge about the timmings and the seals(material). now I know the exact timmings, I am currently practicing skrying........ Another thing you said is: I am relying on pdf file. well, if there's something available over the internet then why I should spend money and then start waiting for the book to arrive (It's the dumbest thing to do is to spend money on something that is at your finger tips). Well, I am interested in arguing with you about your previous post, I thankyou for all your answers and teaching regarding goetia spirits.....

Dont worry Sleepyman, my rant was mostly about other magicians, sorry if I offended.
I am most curiuos if you practiced any other form of magic before you started with the KoS material? If not don't worry, it usually takes some time for the magician to get up the skill, practice and power for intense results.
I am quite glad personally that you came in asking questions from the KoS books, instead of say Konstantinos' book.
As for editions of the KoS & Goetia, I recommend the esoteric archives website. Or Joseph Peterson,s book.
More to come...
Athena

Question for athena OR Bym,
Athena/Bym. I recently took a certification exam in my field. I have a BS in Math/Stat. Well, the exam didn't go as well as I expected, even after studing for 4-5 mos.. Well, there were 30 questions in the exam and I got the right answer for only 17, 13 of them I just guessed. So, my question is: Is there any goetic spirit that have the ability to make my guess answer correct. The spirit must be price, marquis or in some low status. Please advice who should I evoke and ask for help..... Please respond as soon as you can........Thanks man!
........................................................................ Bym, I did test the incense, it got a sweet relaxing smell.....

Greetings Sleepyman! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
Hmmm well now....You certainly have been a busy person, haven't you? *grin* Solomonic Magic is labor intensive! About the incense...from your results and my suppositions it shows, IMHO, that you had met with some success the last time you tried an evocation! Whether or not it was Goetic remains to be seen...but that there was something that responded I have no doubt...the rotten smell indicated either a demonic presence or that of a nasty negative entity!
About a Goetic spirit physically changing exam answers for you then, yes, it could be commanded from some like Paimon or Asmoday. But why? Magical cheating is just cheating with alot of effort. Are you willing to compromise your life energies to cheat? Magic is hard work and Evocation of such Negative entities extracts a price from the user. Make damn sure that you have thought this out thoroughly. Perhaps it would be easier to learn alternative forms of studying? Better results, added skills, no price on your life....sounds like a win/win situation to me... I don't want to discourage you but there are also alternative magic solutions available to you that don't cost you nearly the price that Goetic Evocation requires....Try Sigil magic, or try developing your cognitive powers....
The use of calfskin, though traditional, is by no means necessary when any good parchment will do! If you can try to make your own ink then Great! all the better! One of the Keys to Evocation Magic is to become intrinsically involved in the process that you become, in fact, the Creator (or their Vessel) and so have dominion over the Lesser Spirits. I guess that that aspect of Evocation should be for another thread... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush2.gif) I await your response...I'm curious if I have answered you to your satisfaction. Good Luck! Thanks for doing my test! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/egypt1.gif)

I just have to add this short rant... (not just to sleepyman, to everyone)
How come everyone wants to embark into magic, then take as many shortcuts as possible? Does no one have enough money to purchase metal? Can people not find leather/parchment? Can no one make a robe or purchase one? Doesn't anyone ever purchase books anymore instead of just reading the pdf online?

As a chaote I see nothing wrong with using only that which is necessary. There is no reason to follow the old 'traditional' methods if something else will do. Use what you have to hand, learn to improvise, you never know when you might be away from your altar and need to do some on-the-fly magick (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif)

My rant is that people rely on tools and props too much. If you want to use such things then great, the OTT ritual has a great atmosphere, but don't rely on the tools.

Greetings Mediocracy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I can see your point but if you are, in fact, a newbie to magic and you wish to use a system then you should try the 'recipe' first before launching into substitutions. Chaos Magic will work when one understands the underlying principles and has enough wherewithal to know themselves, etc. But a large number of chaote wannabe's as well as traditionalists end up failing or not getting results because they haven't taken the time to do the homework. It took me a number of years to minimalize my tools and working environs to permit successful results. The principles of Chaos magic will nicely encompass most systems of magic as long as the magician understands the basics. An xacto blade can sub for a sharp knife/boline etc., even an astral knife can work. There are some 'tools' that are necessary, either in reality or figuratively. When looking for physical manifestation one must use, at times, physical props...as the magicians maturity has yet to catchup with the ritual requirements. I don't know many magicians that are able to materialize their results in a physical way. So instead of pushing for shortcuts first, let's try understanding just what it is that is required. Skipping to the final chapter is just impatience and feeds the Instant Gratification Syndrome! The Journey is the best part, else why write the book to begin with?

Bym!
Man you telling me to evoke "Paimon" OR "Asmoday"; dude these are strong kings, and I have no intentions of bothering them. I asked in my previous thread it must be a prince OR marquis OR some lower status entity that has the ability to do the job. Bym! if you know any please let me know. I have everything ready except the spirit sigil. I got only 12-13 days till the new moon. About the smell, yes you might be right, last time when I did the evocation, my direction was wrong. I did a ritual towards the east and the direction of the spirit is towards the south. So it must be someother entity who responded. well, man who should I evoke to get the success in this exam.
thanks for help man........

Greetings!
You are in a rut. I'm trying to disuade you from doing this thing. *sigh* You must have a copy of the Goetia in front of you...what would you like to hear? Crocell, Bifrons, Raum, and Foras! Do the work yourself! For a lousy grade you are willing to sacrifice what? And why do you keep summoning at the wrong quarter? Sorry, this has frustrated me. Do What Thou Wilt! ....and be careful! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush2.gif)

It was probably Forneus before. You just need to be tenacious in your efforts. I've seen these things go for bloody hours....! This is an awful lot of energy for a bloody exam! If you spent the time honing your study skills you would be better off...IMHO!

This post has been edited by bym: May 28 2005, 01:23 PM

As an aside, I once invoked 'The Judderman' (from the Metz advert). I was laying in bed and did a simple invokation ritual chant that I made up on-the-fly. It was not winter, the moon was not fat and I was not drinking Metz or walking in the woods....and yet it worked. I felt The Judderman entity enter my body, I was filled with his energy and presence.

I am not an accomplished mage in the more traditional ceremonial or wiccan crafts. I have an interest in Enochian ritual, have a working knowledge of the Tarot, and just fill in the rest from my imagination. I am a bit of a jack-of-all-trades (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It can be useful to have a chaote around in any group, we may be a bit disruptive at times but its good to have someone around who can adapt to 'fluid' situations and deal with the unforseen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif) Those demon princes never seem to want to wait until the master of ceremonies finds the right banishing in the 'tome of almighty knowledge' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mf_bookread.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/00000008.gif)

Greeting Bym!
Man don't get frustrated on spirits quarters. It was a first time, I had lack of knowledge about these entities. I understand very well, there shouldn't be any mistake in these workings. As far as the one I am planning to do next month, the test is part of it. I am going to ask for something else (very big). As far as offering go, I will agree on making a spirit sigil on a precious metal OR something else that is acceptable; the last resort is a chicken sacrifice, nothing else. All I want from these entities is success till doom.................................................Bym! before a person go for higher education, society promise him opportunity if he succeed. I bought it and I went to school and pursue my education in one of the difficult field, some students go to school for parties, I sacrifice all that hoping for one day I would be successful and then I graduated; guess what I got in return? I got unemployed from a shitty place where I used to work while I was in school. I have a huge stacks of job advertisement where I send my resume. Guess, what I got? you right nothing. I took interview couple places they didn't hire me beacuse I don't have experience. what that means to me is Society dicked with me, and I'll get what I want one way or another. That's the whole reason I am trying goetia, and thanks to you folks who made me understand and advance my skills in this art.

LOL!
I know....lugging that Bloody Book around is a Real Pain...almost like wheeling around the Holly Bibble! Ooooh, my aching back!
I wasn't familiar with Judderman/Metz reference so I Googled it and was totally entertained by the commercial! What a hoot! The imagery was fantastic!
Sometimes the lightness of spirit is necessary to ease the cramping of a ponderous style. You just have to laugh at the absurdity of it all! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/uglyhammer.gif)

EDIT: Sorry...I hadn't read Sleepymans post before responding to Mediocracy!
Sleepyman: I know what you mean.... Life doesn't always flow the way we think it should. Todays educational/academic models are really out of touch with reality in most cases. Only the few end up by being able to pick and choose their way in the world. The rest of us schlubs just waddle on, working our selves in a very unsatisfied state of affairs. We should all sit down and have a serious look around at our situation(s) and see just what we can do to better it....then LAUGH at the total assininity of the human condition! (refer to the statements and postings above) We must develop a sense of humor or the bad guys win! I know that this isn't much consolation... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/5.gif) My cliche' machine isn't functioning.

This post has been edited by bym: May 28 2005, 02:55 PM