Crop Circles, Are They Fact? Are They Fiction? Options

Greetings

I wonder what everyone's views are on Crop Circles?

My personal view is that the phenomena known as crop circles is a genuine one ... and they are likely to be messaging from other dimensions, using the universal system of sacred geometrics as the alphabet.

However, there are likely to be numerous fake crop circles around the planet ... made by unfortunate souls who wish to discredit the wonders which our inter-dimensional beings are leaving for us.

I have had the pleasure of seeing a number of crop circles around the Avebury area of Wiltshire, UK ... from the ground there is nothing but areas of perfectly flattened corn to behold ... but when you can get above the field in which the circle has been created ... wonderful.

I have spoken to several people in Glastonbury, UK who have been in the proximity of fields where crop circles are being formed ... one person even claimed to be in the field in the early hours when the circles are formed .... the circles are formed in silence, apparently, with no lights, no evidence of human beings or machinery .... there is no circle one second then in the morning pow!

Some folk speak of strange bouncing blue spheres ... others speak of strange electromagnetic energies ....

Look at this complex crop circle which was formed near Silbury Hill/Avebury last year ... which has been called the 'Mayan Calender' by some ....

(IMG:http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Mr_Merlin/Mystical%20Things/cropsilbury804.jpg)


Now .... what human agency could have formed something like that ... with its exact geometry ... in a matter of moments in the dark?? I don't know of any .... there would have to be tape measures, lasers, etc etc and many hours of preparation ....

When you read the folklore of the Uk ... it is recorded in the middle ages that crop circles were happening then ... which kind of poo poo's the theory of them being the work a modern day faker .... !!!

What are your views on crop circles?

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They are created by people. Early ones were just some guys out for a laugh, the latest ones are created by organised groups of pranksters and artists. They are great public art, though the NFU has a reward for information leading to the conviction of anyone making crop circles as they are trampling some guys crops.

Much like the UFO over Avebury that had lots of people convinced, and turned out to be a bunch of guys with a home made silver foil balloon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) I appreciate the artistic quality of some of the crop circles, the above example is very nice. But to say that no human could create such a thing is wrong, of course humans can create these things. We also built the Pyramids, built the Golden Gate Bridge, all of which are impressive feats of engineering.

Also I would be very dubious of many of the pictures of crop circles that appear on the web, Photoshop is a great tool with which to doctor such pictures.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/southampton/features/...opcircles.shtml

http://www.unmuseum.org/cropcir.htm

http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Crop%20circles.htm

And the guys that make some of them have a website...
http://www.circlemakers.org/
Which includes a handy 'guide' on how to make a crop circle...
http://www.circlemakers.org/guide.html

Oh, and this...
"At the beginning of August 2004 circlemakers John Lundberg, Rod Dickinson and Wil Russell were asked by National Geographic TV to create a demonstration formation in daylight opposite Silbury Hill in Wiltshire for a documentary on the crop circle phenomenon. We decided to create a 200ft formation incorporating a square spiral. Until now square spirals have not appeared out in the fields, probably because unlike a circular spiral - which is relatively easy to accomplish with the right tools - a square spiral is a complex geometric form and difficult to create accurately. At our suggestion National Geographic rigged up a 120ft crane at the side of the field and shot time-lapse footage of the formation being created. It took 3 of us a very sedate 5 hours to create, with lots of breaks in construction for filming. "

http://www.circlemakers.org/natgeo.html
With a great picture of the crop circle they made.

So, to answer Mr Merlins question, "Now .... what human agency could have formed something like that ... ". John Lundberg is just such a 'human agency'. Unless, of course, you think he is just a channel for some extra-dimensional inteligence?

This post has been edited by mediocracy: May 15 2005, 03:47 AM

I agree that there are hoax crop circles out there .... that is not in question ...

But ... before the popularity of crop circles in the late 20th century ... there were crop circles in England back in the 13th and 14th centuries ... are they hoaxes as well???

But, has Mediocracy ever visited a crop circle? Or seen the way the corn has been pushed back which is entirely different to the fall of the corn in the hoax circles ... or spoken with the land owner who's field has a circle in it and who swears on the life of himself and his family that no human agency has been in his field the night before?

I know that some advanced civilisation of mankind built the pyramids ... but with a technology unknown by the modern day .... and I know too that government agencies will be spending large amounts of money employing clever engineers and other groups to build elaborate and convincing hoax crop circles to discredit the 10 - 15% which are genuine ... I belive implicitly this is done as a cover up .... instead of embracing the fact that man with his limited senses cannot explain away, or hope to contain everything which is out there ....

I am familiar with the folk who go out of their way to discredit the unexplainable occurrences on this planet (Lundberg, Dickson & Russell for example) .... that is their choice and their path ...

I just wonder if they realise that there is a good old saying that 'the lady protesteth too much' or 'the more you try to discredit something, the more the message is put out that you have something to hide'.

Can you provide references to crop circles in the pre-20th century? I am not aware of any reputable sources and would be interested to study them.

The rest of your post is a conspiracy theory that you provide no facts to back up. You are entitled to your beliefs, and other members can read our posts and choose which they choose to believe. A word of caution on sworn testomony - I worked as a Police Officer some years ago and took many witness statements. It is telling that two people who witnessed the same event at the same time can provide statements with clear discrepencies. And so-called experts/reliable witnesses such as Police Officers are just the same despite training in observational skills. I remember a colleague who was sure he had seen a 'big cat' walk across the road in front of his patrol car during a night shift...utter rubbish but he was convinced it happened.

Governements are strange things. We all assume they have these shadowy agencies working to cover up big secrets. And yet they did not think to bury a few barrels of chemicals in the desert in Iraq? With all the really bad shit that IS going on in the world, right out in the open for all to see, we still seem obsessed with cover-ups and conspiracies. Go to a third world free-trade zone and see the appalling conditions workers endure making trainers. Look at the shanty towns that coffee growers in africa live in because our free trade laws imposed by the WTO are not fair trade laws. I'm sorry if you feel I should spend less time on these issues and instead go chasing after non-existant aliens making crop circles in a field down the road from where I live.

Anyway, I should not be dragging this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/offtopic.gif) and into a political rant. I will move my post to the Hive area if it starts to drag the thread too far away from Crop Circle discussion.

lol.

Ok, the original crop circles were just circles - nothing amazingly elaborate. They were formed by small whirlwinds in the night (and yes, this has been proven).

It's quite natural - unless you want to blame sylphs, in which case I still say that's quite natural.

Okay yes ... the majority of crop circles are more than likely made by human technology (more in a moment) ....

.... localised whirlwinds will have made crop circles ...

.....Also, underground streams of water may produce a series of overlapping spirals which may be found directly above them, on the surface, the radius of the spirals being the same as the depth of the water ... producing a spiralling pattern ...

Extract taken from www.leyman.demon.co.uk Chapter 15

CROP CIRCLES
Early in my research I was becoming increasingly aware that scientists would be extremely sceptical of the theory that spirals from underground water could cause illness and other effects, but fate decided to play a helping hand to bring the spirals to the attention of the general public and the world at large in a sensational manner.
This was the advent of the beautiful crop circles which over twenty years have grown in number and complexity in the south of England and elsewhere; beginning with pristine purity, but becoming later con¬fused by hoaxers trying to discredit it as a natural phenomenon.
In 1981, Pat Delgado, a retired electro-mechanical design engineer, had his attention drawn to some mysterious circles in fields of crops at Cheesefoot Head, Hampshire. In the following years he studied the rapidly growing phenomenon with a group of colleagues, and by 1989 an international scientific effort was under way to try to find its cause.'

The patterns in growing crops are beautifully symmetrical, usually circular, with the stalks bent above the surface of the ground in a clockwise or anti-clockwise pattern. On occasion, a clockwise swirling pattern has been overlaid with a subsequent anti-clockwise pattern, or vice versa. The circles come in a variety of shapes and configurations, sometimes in geometric patterns, and often strongly symbolic. The edges are mostly sharp and well defined. The circles are formed at night in a variety of crops, but also sometimes in field grass or in trees. In twenty years there have been several thousand crop circle events in many countries around the world, with the greatest number and the most complex in southern England; they are too widespread, com¬plex and numerous to be explained away as hoaxes.


THE BLAIRGOWRIE CROP CIRCLES
There have been very few crop circles reported in Scotland. However, I was able to see one of the earliest ones which occurred on Friday night, 15th June, 1990, within 100 metres of a disused quarry.(2).
Two circles, the larger 74ft. 1 in. diameter, the smaller 37 ft. 7 in., were both swirled anti-clockwise in a field of 3ft. high grass near Blairgowrie, in Perthshire. This crop does not have tramlines (tractor wheel tracks) which can encourage hoaxers. Laurence Blair Oliphant, the farmer and owner of the nearby Ardblair Castle insisted he was the first person to enter the pattern. The circles looked beautifully symmetrical and round, but they were actually slightly oval in shape, with a tightly wound bunch of grass in each of the slightly offset centres. The grass stalks were pressed hard into the ground, with each blade looking as if it had been steamed, pressed and curved into shape.

The pattern was beginning to lose its highly coherent design due to the fact that grass can recover quite quickly from damage. These particular crop circles had an anti-clockwise spiral of energy, sensed by my divining rods, and there was no sign of a clockwise spiral at all.

There were incoming waves with a wavelength of 60in. (152cms.}, and an amplitude of 5in.(13cms.), which may have come from a distant standing stone. At that time I was unable to follow it back to source as I would have liked. It is obvious to me that it is by the use of divining rods that any sensitive person with experience will have a better chance of differentiating between a natural and a hoaxed circle.

Jenny Blair Oliphant, the farmer's wife, told me of several other incidents which had occurred in the space of a few years prior to this event. It is possible that they could have been caused by the same energy phenomenon.


UNIDENTIFIED AERIAL PHENOMENA AND DEAD CATTLE
Two years before the crop circles occurred, Jenny Oliphant was in the castle kitchen, when she was amazed to see a huge circular object hovering above the pine trees in the courtyard. She watched it for several minutes, then called her husband. They both went into the courtyard and watched the object which had variously coloured lights on its circumference. They said they felt powerful vibrations coming from the spinning shape. Suddenly, without warning, it disappeared, and all was still again. Only some weeks after the circles occurred, did they realise that the two mysterious occurrences might be connected.
Early one morning, the farm manager entered the same field in which the crop circles were to manifest themselves the following year. He was horrified to find two stirks (immature calves), a stot (bull calf), and a heifer, lying dead at the circular feeder. He carefully noted the positions of the animals. They were on their knees and the heads of both were twisted in the same direction. He dragged the bodies to the edge of the field and summoned the vet, who took blood samples and tested for anthrax, which is the usual practice, before cutting open the neck of one to confirm his suspicion that it had died of a broken spine. There were no other signs of damage to the calves. He suggested that they had died at around midnight, 23rd November, 1989.

The injuries had been inflicted by some powerful physical trauma and he conjectured how this had occurred. There had been no low flying aircraft during that period, or thunder or lightning, or hoof scrapings on the ground, and the food hopper was in its original position. Both the stot and the stirk had been feeding at the same quarter of the hopper, which suggests that both animals had died simultaneously, and there had been no struggle.

The two crop circles had an underground stream running down through their centres. It was this which seems to have been one factor which linked the two incidents. It was relatively easy to follow the track of this stream, from the large circle, through the smaller, then down to the area where the hopper had been the year before, it continued on to Ardblair Castle, into the well in the centre of the building, out to the pine trees where the aerial phenomenon occurred, then on to a stone circle nearby. This circle is unique, since it has a road run¬ning through it, which may or may not be relevant.

It is possible that the circular hopper had induced an energy field from the underground vein of water which attracted a form of aerial energy. Instead of manifesting as a crop circle, the energy had earthed itself, striking the two animals with sufficent power to break their necks. Alternatively, a powerful electric shock, like clear air lightning, for instance, may have struck the hopper and shorted through the cows, causing a powerful muscular spasm, sufficient to break their necks. Laurence Blair Oliphant assured me that the necks of cattle are immensely strong. It takes a very powerful physical blow to cause damage of this nature. He also showed me his map of the area, with three energy leys intersecting at that point from nearby standing stones and circles.

Whatever might have caused the aerial display seen by Mr. and Mrs. OIiphant, or killed the cattle, or formed the crop circles remains a mystery. Gustav Freheirr von Pohl discovered that lightning earths itself preferably into two crossing subterranean veins of water. Oak trees flourish over these zones, hence the higher than average number of times that oak trees are hit by lightning. Perhaps it is a disorganised form of ionized energy from some source which earths itself into the ground, initially forming a tubular shape whose width is determined by the width of the stream of water, causing a tightly twisted bunch of crop in the centre, then spirals outwards, culminating in highly complex designs — the same earth energy designs which are all around us. This vortex theory was initiated by Dr.Terence Meaden, and I have adjusted it somewhat to take into account the hidden spirals above aquifers.

Recently it has been impossible to say just how many of these circles are natural and how many are hoaxed, but well-informed opinion is that it is a genuine phenomenon with a history of at least 20 years which in Britain in the last six years has been largely undermined by an intensive and financially well-backed disinformation campaign by a semi-official group actively encouraging particular groups of hoaxers. The most complex and symbolically significant ones are still very much part of the genuine phenomenon. At some level it seems that government is clearly concerned that public interest in the phenomenon will lead people to become more inquisitive about the UFO phenomenon, to which the crop circles may be closely related!

It is very sad that the crop circle phenomenon has not been taken more seriously. Some aspects of 'paranormal' behaviour, and the re¬covery of the knowledge of the ancient megalithic culture also depend, 1 believe, on understanding these same energies.

Extract taken from Spirals, Crop Circles


There is also the research of Scientist Brian Desborough ... who has unearthed an entity known as Project Bluebeam .... yes, he agrees that through Project Bluebeam there is the possibility that crop circles are not necessarily extra terrestrial in origin ...indeed the technology available to the secret few is an extremely high frequency beam - and he claims that in the 1980's before the complex crop circles first appeared, the technology was possibly developed to create crop circles to mislead the open minded mystics of the world ...the high frequency gamma-ray beam device had been developed by the military (apparently) ....Refer 'An Overview Of UFO Contact And Abduction Phenomena' by Brian Desborough ....

Born in the county of Dorset, in the south of England, Brian Desborough has served as a Director of Research and Development for several American high technology companies, and has provided consultation to a company involved in deep space research. He lives in Southern California.

He says the main characteristic of the genuine crop circles are:-

The stalks bend at the lowest node and do not break;
The cell structure changes;
The crop circle pattern emits microwave energy;
Dead animals inside are carbonised;
A high frequency sound or clicking noise is heard when the pattern is formed (as was confirmed by a lawyer friend who was camping nearby to Silbury hill when one circle was formed);
Plasma lights are often seen ...

Every one of these effects could be caused by gamma-ray beams ...

[/QUOTE]The high frequency gamma-ray beam would cause the moisture in the nodules to boil, swelling and softening the nodal cells and causing the straw to bend in the direction swept by the beam. Such beams are capable of creating fine detail; the high frequency sound which is emitted from newly formed crop circles strongly suggests that the beam systems employed in this duplictious act incorporate Mossbaur technology. The soil within the circle would emit radiation and any creature unfortunate enough to be irridated by the beam would be carbonised... Prior to commencing a crop circle, the gamma ray beam would require adjustment for focus and power setting. This could account for the one or more small circular depressions usually to be found adjacent to the crop circle[QUOTE]

The main ambition for Project Bluebeam is therefore to convince people that the earth is being prepared for invasion by extra terrestrials!

Shucks I don't buy that ... but what I accept is that human hands are making elaborate crop circles as exact replicas of complex genuine ones to discredit the likes of myself who believe that a small percentage of crop circles are made .. maybe not by extra terrestrials ... but humanoid races elsewhere on parallel frequencies .... It's taken high up research to develop gamma ray beam technology in order to replicate the genuine circles ....

I just wish the messages of the genuine circles could be embraced and accepted; instead of the extraordinary lengths that agencies of man go to discredit them!

Section Deleted 25th May 2005

This post has been edited by Mr_Merlin: May 25 2005, 02:30 AM

It is worth noting that Silbury Hill is closed to the public since 1974 as it is very unstable. For those that don't know the Hill, it is a man-made hill close of Avebury ring (iirc). Thanks to a number of ill-conceived archaelogical surveys which basically dug a shaft right down the centre of the hill from top to bottom the hill started to collapse and break apart. The shaft has been filled with light weight polystyrene balls to stabalise the hill.

More information about the site and the repairs can be found at...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbury_Hill

http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?th...&sid=2146411632
"The guardians of the 4,700-year-old hill have been trying to persuade people to keep off Silbury since 1974, when it was closed to the public, without destroying its appearance with intrusive fencing. The monument came close to destruction three years ago when torrential winter rain seeped into shafts left by earlier excavation, which collapsed. Although English Heritage has carried out repairs, the whole structure is vulnerable. "

It is not recommended to climb Silbury Hill ... but ... it is the only vantage point with the surrounding countryside being so relatively flat ...

(IMG:http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Mr_Merlin/Mystical%20Things/silbury_hill1.jpg)

(IMG:http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Mr_Merlin/Mystical%20Things/Silburyhill5.jpg)

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There have been so many crop circles in this particular area ... by design (who knows?)

The origin and purpose of Silbury Hill could be another posting (possible trig point for the sacred geometry in the area?)

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This post has been edited by Mr_Merlin: May 16 2005, 06:07 AM

I personally don't think it matters that crop circles are just an elaborate hoax. What in the occult community isn't an elaborate hoax? It takes nothing away from how these hoaxes change peoples' lives. If crop circles inspired people to act and change their perspective about the world they live in then that is all that really matters. Look at all of the theories that crop circles have inspired. The humans that created these circles are no different than Magickians in that respect.

This post has been edited by HenrySpencer: May 21 2005, 08:11 PM

The humans that created these circles are no different than Magickians in that respect

Change that to humanoid or human like and I would agree with you ... to me most of the elaborate circles are made by way of some advanced technology hovering above the crop field with a programmable field of high frequency particles at their disposal ... copying a pattern or glyph which they wish human eyes to see .... to either awaken a deep subconscious part of the human psyche or to merely amuse themselves .....

Or it could simply be just plain old humans with a Discordian sense of humor carrying out another phase of O.M. and it has worked wonders. It has caused you to believe in something greater than our lonely little world. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/harhar1.gif)

I am now convinced that it is Elvis worshiping aliens from the planet Glabdular Ioxid 1005b.
The evidence is here!

(IMG:http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38199000/jpg/_38199879_elvis_field.jpg)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/uglyhammer.gif)

Or maybe comic alien discordian pranksters?

(IMG:http://www.bluemoongear.com/FunnyPicsComics/ComicCropCircle.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.smartt.com/~brianp/images/crop.JPG)

(IMG:http://www.bertisevil.tv/img/bertcrop.gif)

(IMG:http://www.zetetique.ldh.org/images/crop/cropETb.jpg)

So who can say which pictures are fake and which are real. Sometimes seeing isn't believing.

Fine ... there are may many fakes out there and bunches of low lifes who wish to confuse the issue with obvious fakes ...

But ... nothing will sway me from knowing that the small percentage of genuine circles cannot possibly have been by man ....

The ones you posted are so obviously fake it's not funny!

Section Deleted

Just suffice to say ... when something comes along that blows away your concepts of life and existence on this planet ... you are prepared to stand your ground ... even when the entire world laughs in your face! Laugh as much as you want ... I laugh too at the presposterous claims that ALL crop circles are man made .... Nothing any man, scientist, psychologist. or whatever say to belittle me .... has no effect .... because I KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that not all crop circles are man made .... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/victory.gif)

Go on laugh ... they laughed at the man who said the world was round or the man who said man would fly!!

This post has been edited by Mr_Merlin: May 25 2005, 02:31 AM

Ah, debate over, Crop Cirles are a religion (something in which one believes without the need for evidence that can be put to the test). Much like the 'does god exist' thread this discussion will go on for ever.

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Oh you poor poor soul ... can you not see they riducule you ... they chastise you ... and they are the ones who would have stoned the Christ with his claims?

Nothing you say will change their narrow minded viewpoint ... so just give it up ... bigots like that who can't see past their own noses are not worth it ...

My parnter was like that once forcing his religion on me ... I would suffer the torment becuase of his blindness ... his viewpoint was the one and only ...

NO they will never see even when you offer them the absolute proof you have .... they will not see becuase they are not meant to see ...

For the record I like you are open minded and it has been my openness which had me beaten to a pulp night after night by my psychotic catholic partner ...

NO imagine the sticks and the stones they hold and walk away ...

They are so obviously part of the fodder put out there to discredit the wonderful truth of the universe .... they are blind and they are in need ot enlightenment ... it is not your fight friend ... nor mine ...

Their spirituality is still on a lesser plane and they clamber blindly on the rockfaces of self doubt and self hatred ... walk away ...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/angel.gif) Maybe I say too much but it had to be said ... there heads are filled with the same brainwashing crap that my partner had .... and look where that got him .... porridge

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/compress.gif) Thanks for the concern but I can fight my own battles ...!!!

Ah, debate over, Crop Cirles are a religion (something in which one believes without the need for evidence that can be put to the test). Much like the 'does god exist' thread this discussion will go on for ever.

Who said anything about not having any evidence .... ????

Section Deleted by Mr Merlin for legal reasons.

Mod Squad note - You are getting very close to Role Playing with all this talk of 'evidence that dare not speak its name'. If the horse is brought to water you damn well better let it drink! Capiche?!.

This post has been edited by Mr_Merlin: May 25 2005, 02:32 AM

"Oh you poor poor soul ... can you not see they riducule you ... they chastise you ... and they are the ones who would have stoned the Christ with his claims?"

But if one cares to look at the early gnostic churches they have a very different view of what Christ claimed. Teacher or Son-of-God? Most of the stoning seems to have been done to enforce the dogmatic position that Christ is the Son-of-God. Maybe YOU are the one most likely to throw stones, not I.

The rest of your post just supports my claim that Crop Circles is a religion rather than something worthy of investigation and debate. I ask simply for some evidence to support the claims of the 'believers' and yet all I get are vague reports and contradictions, so-called evidence that can be pulled apart or simply evaporates under the light of serious investigation and testing.

UFO's...show me. Not some blurred photo or talk of secret government hangers.

Crowley was a great occultist but even he knew to test test and test again all that was presented to him. The angel that guides you may be a demon in disguise, take nothing at face value. If spiritual progress means being credulous then I think I will remain unenlightened...but your idea of enlightenment may well be a million miles from mine. Of course it IS possible that I am part of the great Illuminanti plot to hide the true nature of reality from you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/evil.gif)

"Their spirituality is still on a lesser plane and they clamber blindly on the rockfaces of self doubt and self hatred ... walk away ..."

I assume you have nothing actually worthwhile to bring to this discussion so chose instead to try and insinuate your spiritual superiority over the more rationally inclined contributors. That may be the level you have been used to on other forums, but I take a very dim view of it here!

If crop circles inspired people to act and change their perspective about the world they live in then that is all that really matters. Look at all of the theories that crop circles have inspired. The humans that created these circles are no different than Magickians in that respect

I agree with this to some extent, whatever inspires change for the better in us is good.

I don't believe in crop circles especially after seeing the television programmes on them, but who is to say that the programmes weren't made to stop us believing in them?

When is proof real?

Can anything really be proven?

It all comes down to what we believe at the end of the day, since even in the face of overwhelming evidence, there are people that will refuse to believe things.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/butcher.gif)

Oh dear ... the swords are out with two clear sides in this debate ...

I as one on the fence for so much of my life clearly see both sides of this. Deliberate misrepresentations by the agents of the beast ( the media) have clouded the vision of folk here .... so some of you totally believe what the media tells you in the truth about crop circles eh? Well done ... for being so naive eh? Do you think that the powers that be really want it world public knowledge that there are other races besides mankind out there?

Ha no ... they have at their disposal all the wealth and all the money to hide the truth with many lies .... ha

The money men of the world go to huge lengths to hide any ET phenomena ... they hide proof and they provide convincing hoaxes and fakes to confuse the gullible sheep of the world ...

Ha ... So I'm not saying they ARE real but don't be so damning of folk who are less gullible to fall for the dogma and shite put out by the biggest conmerchants the world has ever known

I went reading thro the forum and I note in places mr merlin is a sceptic ... yes ... he doesn't believe in things that readily ... so if that's the case why is he so adamant about this ? I stopped to think and read more in here and realised he only puts out things he knows he has received either truth or proof about ...

I see that ... I wonder if then there is something in what he says ... but I'm new here and still on the fence and I love things like ufos and et's and things like that and have done since I was a kid so I am open minded on these things.

I know that the world media lies and tries to con people into thinking what it wants you to think ... so with crop circles it could be the same that somebody spends losts of time and money to make us all think there aint such thing...

you want proof you said? well the proof has been out there bvut these shitehole hoaxers have cocked it all up for us! now you can;t see the wood for the trees ....we go chasing our tales and are all mixed up with the crap in the news which is not what it seems

I spent some time in the middle east when the iraq stuff was going on ... and the picture was not the same over there ... when Bagdad was bombed I had friends there who couldn't belive what the west was being fed about it... but thats not this debate but a side line ... the media is a liar and only lets you know what it wants you to think ... it can put convicing stuff across ... you only have to look at hollywood films that seem so real ... yet are illusionv ... i think the films i've seen on hoax crop circles are an illusion to hide the truth

I've seen so much since a kid and am real intuitive with things ... here i'm sure that you need to open your closed minds and think again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/5.gif)

So let me get this straight. There is a huge global conspiracy, controlling the worlds major governments, that creates fake crop circles to hide the fact that real crop circles are being made by super intelligent cosmic beings who are leaving us messages.

1) Why is it that this huge and powerful global conspiracy is clever enough to cover up visits be ET and yet too dumb to go and bury a few cannisters of nerve gas in Iraq and fake evidence of those WMD?

2) Why is it these super intelligent aliens are so clever that they can cross huge distances in space ships and make crop circles, and yet too dumb to just hover over London in plain sight and beam a clear message to every tv set on the planet?

'The Illuminatus! Trilogy' has a lot to answer for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

The 'super intelligent' aliens as you call them would create mass hysteria and fear if they did that .... destroying the belief and life structure of millions of humans on the planet ....

Instead ... their ways of 'contact' should be deemed as careful and contact with the select few!

They must surely know the human DNA and the human super-conscious better than humans do having probably designed it... their contacts will be via subtle directions ...

So what exactly makes you think that these 'super intelligent aliens' are benevolent?
Only making contact with a select few seems to me as a way of setting up a theocracy/technocracy of an elite to enslave the masses (yep, back to the Illuminanti aren't we).

Look at human history, it has many examples of the minority elite ruling over the masses, readers of Marx will recognise the classic elements of the class struggle. Britain built an empire by supporting exising power structures to exploit the masses, the USA has built an economic empire by supporting right-wing dictators against socialist elected governments in central and south america. The G8 have subjugated vast swathes of the worlds poorest by imposing economic trade barriers which are neither 'free trade' nor 'fair trade' but instead favour rich nations agro corportations vs poor farmers.

Yet again there is no evidence put forward to support the hypothesis that 'aliens' are leaving messages for humanity in corn fields. Why would a direct message cause "mass hysteria"? The human mind is very adaptable and would soon take on board this new reality, heck people have been watching sci-fi shows since they were born! But instead all we get is americans with anal probes and a few dead cows, plus some flat corn in a design any human could produce. In the 19th century there was a great interest in faeries with people claiming to have been abducted to the 'faerie realm' etc, now we have alien abduction. The human mind is capable of great leaps of the imagination as was shown with a recent psychology experiment in scotland where they invited people to visit a 'haunted house'. The visitors reported seeing things, feeling temperature drop in certain rooms etc. The building they chose had no history of haunting, and the evidence suggests that the mind is highly suggestable. You can do this yourself just by telling ghost stories with your friends in a dark house late at night

You have also raised the issue of 'Intelligent Design' which really deserves a thread of its own here on the Pseudoscience forum. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Mediocracy,

I find it funny, that you can have faith in and belief in and KNOW magick, yet can find faith, belief or Knowing about crop circles and aliens.

Magickians often claim to have summoned being that many dont believe exist. Magick has never been proven to science, but, by being here, and taking part in the forums in more than just a moderatory postition, I find it funny that you arent open minded that these things exist.

Durring the Renaissance, many artist painted flying disks. Flying disks are also found in the pyrimids of egypt.

There is even a debate currently going on that UFOs are mentioned in various ways in the Bible.

The pyrimid disks and the disks in Renaissance artwork are proven. Yes, some crop circles have been hoaxes, but some are too grand, to have been put up in one night unless one has so many assistants that it would be noticible by evidence that they were hoaxes, yet these are the ones that remain mysteries.

Mysteries are mysteries. Period.

Magick is one form of mystery, alien life, UFOs and (some) crop circles are another.

Hard to believe though that one open minded enough to be into occult practices isnt openminded enough to believe that some crop circles were createdd by an alien race.

No one has said that they were created to communicate to us. Just a few thoughts.

Thats all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/witch.gif) You practicers of high magick draw up symbols of power and cast on them; throwing the energy of the symbols high into the great unknowable .... you accept this as real and true and something which is there ....

It goes out there as an energy .... and will be received by intelligences somewhere ...

Surely ... they are going to want to reply ... to communicate back in someway?

Maybe then the crop circles are their responding symbols .. their replies ....???

Maybe in times past their was a lot of magical castings which are now being answered ...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/mamba.gif)

Magick, for me, is a form of 'Double Think' (The ability to hold two mutually contradictory ideas in mind simultaneously. And believe both of them.) This may just be a chaote thing, it has the advantage of allowing us to paradigm shift with ease. Through the use of certain entheogens I have had experiences akin to communicating/channelling alien intelligence, and I could propose a thesis that points to entheogens having arrived on this planet from space (either by design of accident). The experience was useful for pathworking and insight, and yet can easilly be explained away by the effect of the drug on memories and feelings. The experience is still useful and valid for me personally and yet in a wider context does nothing to prove my thesis on anything more than a superficial level.

But really this is just a debate where point and counter-point are presented. I have challenged the thesis that crop circles are created by aliens, and as yet nobody has come back with anything more than a conspiracy theory. One persons 'open mindedness' is another persons 'credulity', and whilst magick remains on the fringe then credulity is ok but sadly it does lead to people being exploited emotionally and financially by charlatans. If, however, we raise the bar a little and research magick as more than just a psychological play thing then credulity just isn't enough any more. You can be as 'open minded' as you like, but putting water in your cars petrol tank won't make it work.

So if you find crop circles as a useful focus for magick then great, work with it for effect. I have invoked entities from adverts/tv in the past with good results but that doesn't mean I expect to bump in to the Judderman on my next walk in the woods (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif)

But really this is just a debate where point and counter-point are presented. I have challenged the thesis that crop circles are created by aliens, and as yet nobody has come back with anything more than a conspiracy theory. One persons 'open mindedness' is another persons 'credulity', and whilst magick remains on the fringe then credulity is ok but sadly it does lead to people being exploited emotionally and financially by charlatans. If, however, we raise the bar a little and research magick as more than just a psychological play thing then credulity just isn't enough any more. You can be as 'open minded' as you like, but putting water in your cars petrol tank won't make it work.

So if you find crop circles as a useful focus for magick then great, work with it for effect. I have invoked entities from adverts/tv in the past with good results but that doesn't mean I expect to bump in to the Judderman on my next walk in the woods

I take your point ... it is a strange thing magick ... accepting something as truth without apparent proof ... and any proof which does appear can be construed as no proof at all!

Even that which the rational human eye sees can be explained away as dillusions of the mind!

However, I stand firm with Crop circles. THERE are many, many hoaxes out there, but the few which associates of mine have researched have trails which lead to one conclusion ... they are not made by man! However, I cannot present this proof here until I gain (if ever) the permission to post very sensitive testaments ... this isn't role play I can assure you ... once they land on my lap with a 'yes you can' they will appear here as pdf ...

However, the strength of eye witness accounts in the debate is possibly weak!

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I finally found something that I enjoi. Many people think that crop circles are either man-made or made by aliens. But being a juggalo, and a religous person, i and many other juggalos on this ball of dirt we live on believe that crop circles weren't created by aliens and certainly not man, but by the spirits of those long gone. According to a very influential person, when there is an eclipse of the moon, set flames to the rows, and according to him, the spirits will come and create the designs that mystify people all around the world. I have never tried this but i plan to do it.

This post has been edited by The Black Devil: Jul 17 2005, 08:24 AM

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The Latest 'Man Made' Crop Circle Photos!

Waylands, Wiltshire, Aug 2005

Waylands1

Waylands 2

Perhaps these are evidence that the hoaxers are getting more gifted at circle designs. They are fantastic whatever and whoever created them!

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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/mf_bookread.gif) Mediocraty - you asked earlier on for evidence of pre-20th-Century crop circles.

This, from Robert Burton, 'The Anatomy of Melancholy', 1620 (revised 1628):

"Terrestrial devils are those lares, genii, fauns, satyrs, wood-nymphs, foliots, fairies, Robin Goodfellows, trolli &c....These are they that dance on heaths and greens...and, as Olaus Magnus adds, leave that green circle, which we commonly find in plain fields, which others hold to proceed from a meteor falling, or some accidental rankness of the ground, so Nature sports herself; they are sometimes seen by old women and children."

Make of this what you will - it certainly predates mass media, or any government sufficiently sophisticated to concoct an elaborate conspiracy of cloaking (except, perhaps, in China; but Burton was writing in Oxfordshire, where the Ming dynasty had little influence). Note also that "plain fields" referred to fields left untilled in the crop-rotation system. Before industrial agriculture brought immense food surplusses to the West, creators of 'crop circles' seem to have avoided crops altogether, and gone for wild, grassy areas. Because productive land was more closely watched (by "old women and children")? Because they didn't want to trample their own harvest? Or because they are super-enlightened beings who don't want their human charges to go hungry? (Or at least, it would seem, their superior, more evolved charges, outside Africa.) It would also seem that another explanation is needed to account for their secrecy - in an era where all the planets were considered to be inhabited, and extremely wise, well-read and sceptical physicians could indulge in lengthly digressions on trolls and satyrs, converse with a super-terrestrial being would have been a remarkable event, but hardly a cause of mass hysteria.

Many Blessings,
Loris