New Guy With A Question. Options

If magick is real and so many people practice it, why has no one showed some big public guy and made a shitload of cash?

Not being a smartass or anything,I actually really would like to get into it, but just wondering if anyone had some obvious, logical answer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/face08.gif)

"proof" is an illusion. NOTHING is absolutely provable.
You could not for example, ever prove 'absolutely' that you actually posted this thread. I don't doubt that you did, but you can't prove it.

Nihilism aside, just looking at human nature, you can never totally prove anything to anyone, if it violates their concept of how the universe works.

You may as well ask "why don't atheists go prove evolution to some big religious guy?". You can have substantial evidence, but that doesn't necessarily *do* anything when dealing with the human animal. There are people who will 'explain away' just about anything you could possibly show them. Or even go so far as to repress the event entirely from their conscious memory. I've seen it happen, hell I've done it myself.

There was a guy named James Randi who offered one million dollars if someone could prove something supernatural to him. Of course he was what you might call a 'rabid atheist' type, and really there wasn't much of any chance that anyone would ever see that cash. Aside from him losing a million dollars, he'd have to actually admit he was wrong to the whole country, and more or less end his whole career. Ultimately his 'challenge' involved him choosing whether you could try for it or not, him choosing what parameters would indicate a success, and him deciding if the results met those parameters. In other words, he was cop judge jury and executioner in his little kangaroo court. Anyway, he eventually withdrew his offer, saying he had proven his point already.

Such ego-brandishing public displays are pretty much meaningless. A more realistic look at pragmatic proof of things like ESP and OBE could be found in both eastern & western military research programs. In the west, the 'remote viewing' project was dropped (at least publicly), the given reason being that "while we've substantiated the validity of several methods, they are simply too unreliable to be of significant military value". Although currently, in the army, if you're an officer you can request a handheld video game which uses a true 'random number generator' (most video games actually just use the nanosecond counter on a computer's clock and do not truly generate random numbers), which is designed to basically allow one to play a prediction-based game. This is designed to hone one's 'gut sense' or 'instinct' in a combat command situation. It has been thoroughly proven that although one's score in such a game should be consistently random, people do in fact "get better at it", even though there is no way (using the 5 physical senses) to improve at the game. This was put out originally in the early 90's last I heard they are on their 3rd generation of the handheld game console now. Anyone here who's an army officer could probably provide more information on it.

This post has been edited by Kath: Jun 11 2010, 03:13 AM

Yeah, I know what you're saying, but aren't there like certain types of magick that spawns results that can be seen by a third party (I mean, someone who had nothing to do with the actual casting)?

I mean, I wouldn't tell anyone probably, just because I enjoy being a secretive person about certain things, but it seems that someone wouldn't have thought that way by now.

lol - its always the same damn thing

where is the proof, proof, and more proof - winning lottery numbers, amazing randi's million $ for proof of magic, etc, etc, etc

and then its always 'gimme'

do the whole quest, discover the treasure, and realize how precious the treasure is, and you will discover the reason nobody comes forth to do that, and why no mages are running around poofing money or are dripping rich in material possessions but have only what they need when they need it

oh, and if you see someone doing that, it means they are a great big fake, and its not their money but other people's

makes me want to go *poof* again, and i think i will

*poof*

This post has been edited by esoterica: Jun 11 2010, 09:00 AM

Okay, but realistically, there would be at least one person who would want to profit off their abilities. Not everyone holds the same "treasure should be kept in the chest" philosophy as you, my friend.

I just asked a simple question.

*Poof*

Okay, but realistically, there would be at least one person who would want to profit off their abilities. Not everyone holds the same "treasure should be kept in the chest" philosophy as you, my friend.

I just asked a simple question.

*Poof*

Most people who are seriously into the occult don't really give a damn about proving anything to mundanes.
They're more concentrated on their path and how to "evolve".
Majority of people who are in it for the money won't really get it since they can't wait for actual result. They think it's instant when it need quite some time and effort.

Kath gave a neat input, 'twas interesting reading .

logical answer.

And there's the problem we face so often! There is definitely a logic to magic but it's not a form of logic the general public necessarily understand.

And in answer to your question - quite simply it almost definitely won't work! There are several laws/forces/whatever you want to call them that govern the world, and certain uses of magic just won't be allowed by those forces or will have extremely unpleasant consequences - that's why an educated practitioner generally won't even try that kind of thing.

Just my thoughts anyways! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)

Reaper, I've had the same question, and I think the answer is: if magic works, and grants any sort of power, any display of your powers would be unneeded - presumably, they've already given you what you want, whether it's money or just spiritual development. I might also say that if I had used a curse, or heck, even a less questionable magical means, to make my fortune, I'd probably keep it secret too. Perhaps Warren Buffet and Bill Gates are the true great occultists, eh?

You may as well ask "why don't atheists go prove evolution to some big religious guy?". You can have substantial evidence, but that doesn't necessarily *do* anything when dealing with the human animal. There are people who will 'explain away' just about anything you could possibly show them. Or even go so far as to repress the event entirely from their conscious memory. I've seen it happen, hell I've done it myself.

Could be, but the difference is - the evidence presented by evolutionists, whether you believe it or not, is there. What Reaper's asking is, where's the evidence for magic? Of course nothing is provable in the ultimate sense of the word, but when people scoffed at the Wright Brothers, they flew well enough to assuage any reasonable doubt.

There was a guy named James Randi who offered one million dollars if someone could prove something supernatural to him. Of course he was what you might call a 'rabid atheist' type, and really there wasn't much of any chance that anyone would ever see that cash. Aside from him losing a million dollars, he'd have to actually admit he was wrong to the whole country, and more or less end his whole career. Ultimately his 'challenge' involved him choosing whether you could try for it or not, him choosing what parameters would indicate a success, and him deciding if the results met those parameters. In other words, he was cop judge jury and executioner in his little kangaroo court. Anyway, he eventually withdrew his offer, saying he had proven his point already.

I would have to disagree completely. Having been witness to several challenges, it most certainly seemed to me that Randi treated them fairly. He is unfailing polite and friendly, and in fact the tests the challengers (a psychic and a "dowser") went through were suggested by them and agreed upon beforehand as fair. They were honestly perplexed as to their failures, and did not accuse Randi of any sort of chicanery.

That doesn't mean it always goes like that, but I personally have a high opinion of Mr. Randi's integrity. Like I have mentioned before, if anyone has a firsthand experience of Randi misleading or insulting them, I would be willing to revise my opinion.

Such ego-brandishing public displays are pretty much meaningless. A more realistic look at pragmatic proof of things like ESP and OBE could be found in both eastern & western military research programs. In the west, the 'remote viewing' project was dropped (at least publicly), the given reason being that "while we've substantiated the validity of several methods, they are simply too unreliable to be of significant military value".

I believe the given reason did not say anything about substantiating the validity of any methods; in fact, quite the opposite. Whether the military would tell the truth on this in the first place is a different matter, of course...

You can also look into the success or lack thereof of remote viewing on the solving of crimes; it's been tried often enough, but I believe it's almost always a failure. I know a police officer or two who's a firm believer, though.

Although currently, in the army, if you're an officer you can request a handheld video game which uses a true 'random number generator' (most video games actually just use the nanosecond counter on a computer's clock and do not truly generate random numbers), which is designed to basically allow one to play a prediction-based game. This is designed to hone one's 'gut sense' or 'instinct' in a combat command situation. It has been thoroughly proven that although one's score in such a game should be consistently random, people do in fact "get better at it", even though there is no way (using the 5 physical senses) to improve at the game. This was put out originally in the early 90's last I heard they are on their 3rd generation of the handheld game console now. Anyone here who's an army officer could probably provide more information on it.

That's very interesting. I'd like more information on it, if anyone has it. There's a RNG online that lets you attempt to influence its output in a number of ways; I tried it for a couple weeks, but never managed anything. My friend had great success then realized he was running it on "demo" mode, heh.

This post has been edited by Vilhjalmr: Jun 16 2010, 02:59 AM