Is anyone here REALLY wealthy? Options

Is anyone here absolutely minted?


And did you get there via magick or guidance?

I'm still in college, so i'm not wealthy yet, but i will probably have enough once i start working.

Is money meant to be a guide to how succesful a person is?

Money is a guide to how financially successful a person is, but it does not indicate how happy and successful in life they are. I think we can agree on that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) I've never met or know anyone who is wealthy because of doing magick however, if that's what you're asking. I have a few wealthy relatives and families and I saw it first hand that it is earnt with hard work, persistence, correct state of mind, creativity, being smart and a little of "luck".

i think the point is whether or not most magick practitioners are worse at material life than normal people, or just the opposite.

wealth is the way success is measured in the material world.

Greetings!
Wealth and money can be two different things... I've been a practicing occultist for over 40 years...and I'm considered to be penniless! But I have a roof over my head, food in my belly, I have good music to listen to and some friends that I'd die for! I feel wealthy. I really want for nothing. Even my luck will place me where I need to be in order to ease bad circumstances. Example: driving up to see my Mum and dropping my transmission. At the toll booth....surrounded by people, with phones, a waiting tow truck, a dealership that fixed my car. Better than it happening alone on the freeway! Later that day, get caught in a massive traffic jam and made 5 new friends! I think you get the drift...cash poor but comfortable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yahoo.gif)

But I have a roof over my head, food in my belly, I have good music to listen to and some friends that I'd die for! I feel wealthy. I really want for nothing.

Why is it that I have all these things and yet feel so empty? I do not crave for anything, and yet feel totally ambivalent towards what I have and life in general. I can honestly say that I would welcome going to sleep tonight and never waking up again.

Yes, I do understand that dream of wanting to enter eternal sleep.

These days I see my life as an independent, unique individual (something that I may possibly never experience again) and my contentment has arisen from within despite being unable to lay claim to great wealth or even great anything.

I just don't feel poor. In fact, it is pretty much as Bym has intimated: one door closes and another one opens.

The best thing in life for me is to feel content and I often do; you feel wealthy in this state, you feel that you have at least enough.

I'm feeling like preaching today so just skip my rant if you're not in the mood (IMG:style_emoticons/default/13.gif)

Most of us will experience that emptyness you talked about Mediocracy. IMHO, it is an emptiness of purpose, goals and lack of something exciting to look forward to. I remember both times when I feel fulfilled and when I feel empty and compares them. Have we try that?

I am/was fulfilled because I have something to look forward to, something I am excited about, something worth living for, something that get's my heart pumping with desires.

Contrarily, I feel emptiness when I have dissapoinments, when my expectations is not met and pessimistic in achieving them, when there seemed to be no hope, and whatever I do to get what I want does not turn out as I planned it to be. Basically, emptyness it is a state of hopelessness and it is a state when I'm too lazy to do something or lack of persistence and discipline to make neccesary changes and sacrifices.

Deep inside, we all want a certain portions of riches, fame, fulfilling relationships, love and happiness but often, we locked ourself out from it, more often from our own self limiting beliefs of what we're capable of doing, and achieving. We asked ourself different questions, depressing questions... like.. why me God? what did I do to deserve this? - where will these kind of questions leads us? of some benefits?

I found out that when I change the way I think - The way I question myself - my reality follows. It is a matter of focus. Just like a race driver will ALWAYS focus on where he want to go and never at the wall. I feel best and driven when I ask,"what am I grateful for in life?" "what would I have to believe in order to be successful?", "what can I do, right now - to be happy?"

Success to me, is to live my life in a way that causes me to feel tons of pleasure and very little pain. Does money makes me happy? Definately! I won't be happy without being financially secure - not "that" rich, but secure. Love? Absolutely! I can't live without love and I need heaps of it. etc etc... but how do I get there? what must I do right now in the present to purchase the future I want to have? What must I sacrifice to prepare myself to earnt it? We usually get what we deserve and to deserve it, I know I have to make...Decisions..

I must make decisions on what to focus on, decide what things means to me, what I must BELIEVE, decisions on what I no longer tolerate and/or make a new habit of doing, and what to do to create the life I desire. When I figured out and decided what I want, I'll start doing something about it. If things doesn't work out, then I must try something else, keep changing my approaches, notice what's working and what's not working. Failure is not an option. A failure is not always a mistake, but I just find a way of NOT making it to work, it may simply be the best thing I can do with my current situation, but sometimes situation changes - of our own creation or not - so, the real mistake is to stop, because that is the point where I accepted myself as a failure.

I was not delivered into this world into defeat, nor does failure course in my veins. I am not the sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepperd. I am a dragon and I refuse to talk, to walk, and to sleep with the sheep. The slaughter house od failure is not my destiny. I will persist until I succeed.
~ Ancient scroll mark III (Og Mandino's the Greatest Salesman in the World)

And whether I achieve what I originally aimed for, in the end, I still will be "wealthy" of the experiences and experiments I gained along process. What do I have to lose? Nothing but wealth!

End of my preach (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mamba.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif)

I enjoyed that - much better than many sermons I have sat through in church Kinjo. I think you have managed to capture everything I would have wanted to say if I had the time today.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

i often feel empty also.

but i don't find it to be disturbing. I enjoy the feeling.
I Walk in the woods and enjoy the sunshine with all my heart.
I sit in the bus home and see how the rain is necessary to nourish the earth and i delight in it.

The emptiness is a feeling left by the ego, some basic egotistical need for a purpose, that all humans have. A need to be something and to do things, something to look forward to. A fear of being bored.

It is the almost the opposite of the spirit of bym's post, which shows a remarkable quality that few have. The ability of not caring for and letting go of troubles.
The ability to smile and be at joy at the midst of a traffic jam, and even use the opportunity to make a few new friends.

Its just the art of letting go, the art of stopping to care, even about this emptiness.
To stop analyzing oneself and just existing.
To embrace the emptiness until it fills up with warmth and love.
Letting go of all doubts and fears.
Just going where the road takes you. The way of being open and receptive to your surroundings. But still guided in the back my mental, logical needs, doubts, etc...

there must be a clear difference between plain logical doubts or skepticism and emotional doubts and worries. Emotional doubt is not needed for a happy life, logical doubts are.

Hey, call it fluffed if you want. I'd rather be fluffed than gloomy and unhappy with many complexions.
I strife to be a happy simpleton, giving simple answers to difficult problems. Answers that to some even seem naive.
But sometimes the simplest and most naive solutions are most effective and also take the greatest courage.

Good postings here! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap.gif)
(don't misunderstand me Mediocracy...I have my 'low' moments also....)
Depression can beat the snot out of you if you let it! I decided awhile back as I watch my body slowly cease to function, you can cry 'poor me!' or you can make the best of the situation. (my meds help too...with the pain) The only thing that bums me out now is my lack of a partner. When this gets bad I call up some friends and take a mini vacation....revelling in their presence and the good time that we're having...then again, I'm blessed with some mighty fine friends! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
I feel that I've made some new friends here on Forum and look forward to new adventures! (sappy, I know....*hehheh*) As far as real monetary wealth goes....I'm poorer than poor. Yes, I'd LOVE to be wealthy but it isn't necessary for happiness. (Sure, given the opportunity, I'd love to be happy AND money rich! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

People don't feel low without being high! and I felt so alive when I was depressed, and suicidal thoughts are'nt trash, your strong people for achieving such deep beautiful thoughts, even if the thoughts may kill.

How we got a big house, is that my dad worked 7 hours everyday doing some serious hard job, physical=physical

I agree Bym, money isn't neccesary for happiness. Some people will convince themself that money is not neccesary because they "believe" they don't deserve or capable to achieve it and there's no point in coveting something they cannot have. The other people simply has different values and did not do anything much to achieve this.

What does it take to be happy anyway?
And how do we know if we are - truely - happy?
What if it is just an illusion?

We all have values in our lifes. Money, love, friendship, family, peace of mind, adventures, etc. What do you value in life? To be precise, how do you associate these things which you think will bring the most happiness to you?

All these values has different associations for each of us. We all have different priorities and will focus more on one values more than the others in an attempt to achieve that "state of happiness", however, when we do achieve it, sometimes we found that it is not exactly what we're looking for, and we'll strive for more. Our values then change - again. Humans can never be fully content and we always will look for more. We are naturally greedy and it's - somewhat - healthy.

Like one of the hermetic axioms says, everything must vibrate or die. The joy in life is not found in possesing things, but in doing things. That is the wealth of what life has to offer.

All living things must have a purpose, or it will wither away... did you notice that a retired person will often die not too long after? take away the purpose of their lifes and they will cease to exist and there goes your emptiness. They simply has nothing to life for. Yes I'm pro on life and light because I AM currently living and the sun and the moon shines above me. I must have or find a purpose in life to enjoy what I have NOW. I may be pro to dead and darkness -later- when I am six feet under when I can't see the goddamn sunrise and a hell of lot of time in my grave to complain about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

But while we're still living, We have OPTIONS. We have free will to DECIDE. We "can" take charge. We are the master of our own ships. We have our own little world we can craft and design as each of us see fit. We all have our own world to rule as we are all Gods of our own "temple".

I just watched the movie Ladder 49 today. The movie is about a fireman whom dedicated his life saving people and died doing it. He ain't rich, but he is truely wealthy of love, and people celebrate his life. A hell of a great movie with a strong moral story. At the end of the movie I cannot help but asked myself, what I have contributed to the world? to my families, friends, colleagues, associates? What can I learn from this? Have I made the world a better place to live? What will I leave behind?

I'll sleep when I'm dead ~ Bon Jovi
Live... with passion!!! ~ Anthony Robbins

Everything that you have all spoken of has been said is said so well and put so beautifully. Not being given to talking for the sake of it, I should only like to add the thoughts of yet another person. Hopefully this is the correct place to leave his words:

1. Take into account that great love and great achievements involve great risk;
2. When you lose, don't lose the lesson;
3. Follow the three R’s: Respect for self, Respect for others and Responsibility for all your actions;
4. Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderful stroke of luck;
5. Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly;
6. Don't let a little dispute injure a great friendship;
7. When you realise that you have made a mistake, take immediate steps to correct it;
8. Spend some time alone every day;
9. Open your arms to change, but don't let go of your values;
10. Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer;
11. Live a good, honourable life. Then when you get older and look back you can enjoy it a second time;
12. A loving atmosphere in your home is the foundation for your life;
13. In disagreements with loved ones, deal only with the current situation — don’t bring up the past;
14. Share your knowledge — it's a way to achieve immortality;
15. Be gentle with the earth;
16. Once a year go some place you have never been before;
17. Remember that the best relationship is one in which your love for each other exceeds your need for each other;
18. Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it;
19. Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon.

H H The Dalai Lama (IMG:style_emoticons/default/banana.gif)

sorry kinjo but i strongly disagree with your post, almost everything of it. So i'm bringing out the axe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/butcher.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And how do we know if we are - truely - happy?

simple, when we are happy and enjoying life. It takes nothing more than that.
Why reason about it, happiness does not need a goal of reason in itself, it just exists. There is no need to make logical sense of it.

We all have values in our lives. Money, love, friendship, family, peace of mind, adventures, etc. What do you value in life? To be precise, how do you associate these things which you think will bring the most happiness to you?

these things do not bring happiness by themselves. Things don't bring happiness at all. You yourself bring yourself happiness when you get these things. But you can bring yourself happiness without these things also.

Like one of the hermetic axioms says, everything must vibrate or die. The joy in life is not found in possessing things, but in doing things. That is the wealth of what life has to offer.

And this conflicts strongly with what you said above.
the joy of life is not found in doing things. It can be found in the way you do things.

All living things must have a purpose, or it will wither away... did you notice that a retired person will often die not too long after? take away the purpose of their lives and they will cease to exist and there goes your emptiness. They simply has nothing to life for

I strongly disagree. I know many old folks that have nothing to do, no purpose at all and are just enjoying their lives. I must say that these folks without a purpose look much more healthy than some younger folks with a purpose. It is true that some old people that are dependent on their jobs die when they retire. But that is because they are strong in ego and cannot take the lack of structure, direction and purpose in life, they are so attached to their jobs that they cannot take the loss.
The trick is letting go of such need for purpose and just enjoying life with or without your loved ones. I look forward with great joy to my retirement.

It seems to me that your definition of happiness is much dependent on outside sources. like a purpose, or things, or even the ability to do things. All these things lie in the material world and are highly dependent on material circumstances. Which means that if you are unable to do a few of those things you would be unhappy?

This post has been edited by A_Smoking_Fox: Jun 17 2005, 01:55 AM

simple, when we are happy and enjoying life. It takes nothing more than that.Why reason about it, happiness does not need a goal of reason in itself, it just exists. There is no need to make logical sense of it.

What I'm saying is what Emerson had said very well; Cause and effect, means and ends, seed and fruit, cannot be severed; for the effect already blooms in the cause, the end preexists in the means, the fruit in the seed.

We did not become happy and wealthy without a cause and reason. We do not need to consciously make these goals, but we naturally will keep moving toward our comfort zones in which these goals preexists.

these things do not bring happiness by themselves. Things don't bring happiness at all. You yourself bring yourself happiness when you get these things. But you can bring yourself happiness without these things also.

Yes, I agree with you Fox, Things do not bring happiness at all, but with what we associated these things with. Everything is a thing, even nothing and emptiness is a thing. It' all about associations and how each of us feels about them.

And this conflicts strongly with what you said above.
the joy of life is not found in doing things. It can be found in the way you do things.

I'm not sure if I can see the conflict here. There's always 2 side of the story, 2 side of a coin. Just like a wheel, it will seek balance, and nothing is truely the truth. It entirely dependen on - from which perspective would you like to see it? One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

I strongly disagree. I know many old folks that have nothing to do, no purpose at all and are just enjoying their lives. I must say that these folks without a purpose look much more healthy than some younger folks with a purpose.

Fox look below the surface of what I was trying to say. Yes, they found their new purpose and joy in living in the moment, living with gratitude, and celebration. They simply find new purposes which excites them and continually feed themself with new meanings and experiments.

Purpose of a thing is NEVER outside of ourself. I repeteadly said these "things" depends on what WE associated them with. And we often change these associations as we mature, have more experience and according to our present needs and desires.

I know I'm not seeing things as they are.
I'm seeing things as I am,
~ Laurel Lee

In practical languange, let me give some example to help clarify my point.
Within two year, a person "need" to make five million dollar for which he will build a factory, send his kids to Harvard, and creates a cash cow for the wealth and well being of his family.

Does the five million dollar alone makes him happy? No. He has to had a family, a product, networks, and channel to build his factory, and his ego to satisfy his needs. What are his needs? See maslow's hierarchy of needs and it should be self explanitory. He "thinks" that 5 million dollar is what makes him happy but it does not. It is his need to "give life" to hundreds of workers in his future factory, to give a future to his kids and a provider to his family. These changes since he only can controls what he associate things with. His kids may not want to go to harvard and choose to join a band. His wife may divorce him, and he may not get the 5 million he require to achieve his desires.

Then, will he be unhappy? Not neccesarily. He simply have to change his approach and perceptions on what things mean to him. He'll make new goals, have a new purpose, find those other things which excites him. And he'll still be happy. Success is a mind's game.

And how do we know if we are - truely - happy?

We do not want, or fret or yearn nor desire constantly. We are placid and content within our hearts and minds.

Like one of the hermetic axioms says, everything must vibrate or die. The joy in life is not found in possessing things, but in doing things. That is the wealth of what life has to offer.

Possession drag you down. They require maintenance, insurance, space, cleaning. Experience of life requires nothing but you, and then your memory. The vibrations of freedom are all the more profound with no impediments.

All living things must have a purpose, or it will wither away... did you notice that a retired person will often die not too long after? take away the purpose of their lives and they will cease to exist and there goes your emptiness. They simply has nothing to life for

That is so true. The reason of life is the reason to be is the reason to live. Take away the reasons then you have nothing.

True wealth is freedom for self, freedom to love unconditionally, freedom of movement, of thought, of desires ... there are more

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/thankyou.gif)

I still disagree strongly with about everything you said kinjo.

All of what you said finds it roots in the materialistic plane, all of those things are dependent on the way things are in the material world.
Perhaps that is the way 90% of society functions, but i am not part of that 90%, else i would not be on these forums.

How could i try to transcend material thought and ways if i am bound down to it.
As a result of magical study the emptiness will come and it can no longer be filled with a purpose or a goal. The need then arises to push past that emptiness. But there will not exist a valid purpose to fill it,because the mind has transformed.

I worried months about the sense of no purpose that meditation and magical study had brought me. I felt lost and had now way to go, my studies did not interest my anymore, my life seemed boring. There was no need for anything, no desire to do anything.
Then i just let go, I lost my need for purpose, still my grades sky-rocketed because of it. Everything seems to go easily and by itself since i let go.

That is what i believe, its subtleties lie in the internal view of these things, and on the outside can appear the same. But in fact my beliefs on these things are exactly opposite to yours.

It does not matter much, beliefs differ at times, thats just how they come. Try not to make to much of it. Many of my best friends are strong Catholics and even complete atheist against any form of belief.

Total freedom is the lack of purpose.

Sounds pretty much like death to me.

America is a free country right? Do they lack of purpose in their statement of independence? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I agree to disagree with you on this one Fox (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Note - this post seems to have been edited by mistake. If that is the case then we apologise, it is not our intention to censor members who are expressing themselves within the site rules - mediocracy

This post has been edited by mediocracy: Jun 17 2005, 03:47 PM

You are probably right, but in my opinion I consider that the purpose of life is freedom, and that being bound to that purpose is destiny, and that the necessity for a purpose is human, and that the total lack of purpose is total and permanent freedom. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush2.gif)

Total freedom is the lack of purpose.

Sounds pretty much like death to me.

America is a free country right? Do they lack of purpose in their statement of independence? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I agree to disagree with you on this one Fox (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Lets just leave it at that. Everyone has a right to his own view on life.

But who edited my post?
Are you censuring me kinjo?

It now says the same as your reply, which isn't correct...

I worried months about the sense of no purpose that meditation and magical study had brought me. I felt lost and had now way to go, my studies did not interest my anymore, my life seemed boring. There was no need for anything, no desire to do anything.
Then i just let go, I lost my need for purpose, still my grades sky-rocketed because of it. Everything seems to go easily and by itself since i let go.

That mirrors what I am feeling right now. I had put it down to my depression but it is likely caused by my Zazen practice. I do go through turmoil when I try and grasp material things, become attached. Then I let go of these attachments and a get an inner calm, where I see all the possible things I can do stretched out in to the infinite. Is this a glimpse of the one-point, the source, the point where we are all linked?

I see the lack of purpose stage as a letting go of the outer materials need and getting in touch with our inner selves that just are; this is where the contentment is for me.

Not sure how I discovered it but I have half a mind it was when I was seriously ill and I was able to observe myself from the inside looking out at my body and outer self just getting on with things as a human, not for long though, just little more than a brief glimpse, but I then realized that there is more to me than my physical parts.

But who edited my post?
Are you censuring me kinjo?

It now says the same as your reply, which isn't correct...

Sorry Fox, I clicked a wrong button trying to quote you but instead posted it over yours. Silly me, please accept my apology. Can anyone who tracked this thread who received notification email with your post on it PM me please so I can restore the deleted post please? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/004.gif)

okey, no hard feelings (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I really was confused by the emptiness. it really worried me.
but it seems that my worrying was worse than the feeling itself.
Then, for lack of a better word, i just let go. I stopped caring all together and began enjoying.
I remember that the emptiness scared me those days, i thought that i needed a purpose, but there is no purpose once you let go all material cravings. Sure, i still have material cravings, but not enough to direct my life to one. Any material goal would have no meaning to me, and spiritual life is a path, not a goal, so there was no purpose to be found anywhere.

Then i just let go.
Its like deliberately letting go, i just said to myself
"f*ck it, i don't care anymore, so what if i feel empty, i have no need for anything, f*ck it all to hell"
That is almost literary what i thought one day. It no longer bothered me after that, i would just observe calmly, and then i came to the following conclusions:

i found the emptiness has a tendency to fill with various emotions rather easily. love, hate, especially anger. Sometimes that can be hard, when roused with anger it can be mind-blowing. The same can be said when looking into the eyes of a loved one. Emotions seem to flow into it. Thats how i found a way to keep it filled with a love kind of emotion. I can put on a happy sound, look into the sky and start filling myself with love. It lasts a while, but it has a tendency to keep filling itself. Its fun to meditate that way.
Its even easier to keep filled with anger, but also rather painful.

I also found that the emptiness can get filled with a sad kind of feeling that seems empty. the true emptiness exists for me only a short while after meditation. Then it fills with the first emotion i have, i cannot keep it empty, so instead i keep it filled with love.

I hope it makes sense, i have no source for this except my own experience...
perhaps i am just a deluded fool. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/8.gif)

That mirrors how I have been feeling recently. Sometimes I can do the 'letting go' thing and have an amazing connection to everything, then I start to grasp and fill up with a lot of emotions I find it hard to cope with...then I let go again and the cycle continues.

I was starting to think that I was going mad. Thank you for sharing your experience, you have given me a very useful and timely bit of guidance.

Fox, the way you describe what you mean by "emptiness" pretty much what I defined in my dictionary as "acceptence".

When you accept things for they are, not what as you want them to be, you will began to truly appreciate them.

Another word for it is detachment - when you're being and thinkng out of the box.

Here's a good article on Attachment by a lady in the Philipines named Joan:

Attachment is a poison to the mind that could lead to greed, lust, depression, jealousy and envy. It is when you want something so much that you become afraid you are going to lose it or not going to get it. It could be attachments to objects, people and results.

Attachment steams out from the thought of "lack". Of not having enough. Of the thought that there will never be anything like it in the future. Well you must remember that there maybe never be anything like it, but there is definitely something better than it.

When you become attached to anything or anyone you will be so blinded by it that you will never learn to appreciate the good things that has happened to you and you will be blocking all the good things that is suppose to happen to you.

And the paradox of it all is that, ATTACHMENT is the same reason why your desires will elude you. You want something so bad that you are so afraid you will not going to get it.

You keep imagining all the worst things that could happen why you are not going to get it. You keep feeding all these thoughts with the powerful emotion that is fear and so your dire imaginings come to pass.

It is like being caught in a "riptide". A riptide occurs when two opposing currents meet. It will pull you from side to side and under. You will be so afraid you get drowned that you will fight the forces pulling you, you will get so exhausted and indeed drowned.

The trick when being caught in a riptide is to "relax and go where the waves take you and it will take where you want to go -- to a calm part of the sea". Don't struggle and you will soon get freed.

When doing a spell, you are sending your desire out to the universe. When you are so attached to the result you want, you will be struggling inside. You will end up sending conflicting emotions. Emotions from a desired fulfilled and your fear that your desire will not be fulfilled. They will just cancel each other out and nothing happens or whichever is the strongest will win out. In this case I am sure the fear will win out.

In order to erase attachment from your mind, you have to maintain the thought that the universe will definitely bring you whatever you want there is no doubt about it or if it is too much for you, just believe that something so much better is going to happen to you.

Spare illustrated a magical technique that has proven effectiveness...if you'll pardon the topic digression.
Sigilize your desire(s). Do a few, placing one sigil on one card. Shuffle them up and put them down for a fortnight. 2 weeks or so later (at this point, you will have forgotten conciously what the sigil represents...your subconcious will know but not the concious) , take one card and cast the spell...(raise some intense energy, focus on the sigil, fire energy in shape of sigil) turn around, reshuffle card back into the deck and forget about it! Spare used sex magic to launch his sigil spells (some of them anyway). By forgetting the sigil one has redirected the concious mind on towards other things, allowing the subconcious to act directly on the sigilized wish. Presto! This forgetting may be tied back to the discussion by what it does in manifesting results...something like 'sleeping on the problem...' I'm rambling now...