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 Ancient Places, do they have a meaning
Sage of the ages
post Nov 18 2004, 04:30 PM
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i wanted to see if anyone is willing to find conections bettween ancient places and religons? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

i find it weird that human energy is in a lot of religons just named diffently like chi or kundalini. and something i found shocking is that is found a realy old painting of Jesus doing a mudra same with a lot of the saints which is strongly and eastern thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


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post Dec 7 2004, 03:00 PM
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What's a mudra?


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Sage of the ages
post Dec 7 2004, 05:34 PM
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it is a thing one does with ones hands one of them is having your hand fully open and then thouching you ring finger to your thumb. it is suppost to help with the mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)


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post Dec 8 2004, 03:38 AM
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QUOTE(Sage of the ages @ Dec 7 2004, 11:34 PM)
it is a thing one does with ones hands one of them is having your hand fully open and then thouching you ring finger to your thumb. it is suppost to help with the mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

Then mudra is not for me, I used to do them but done nothing but put a slight tension in my body.

Where did you find this paintings? any link to it pls?


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Sage of the ages
post Dec 8 2004, 03:40 PM
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i will have to look it up. but i think that it was in a church in constanpanopl in turky.
forgive the spelling (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


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Crom Cruach
post Mar 21 2005, 08:35 AM
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As to the Mudra, there is the theory that the gap in Jesus's life (from child to adulthood) was spent travelling around the near and far east, much of it within India. There has been at least one such documentary on Discovery (at times a bit far fetched, but still very interesting).

The power of Ancient places is interesting, many of the Christian churches were built on non-christian sites of worship (or like Delphi they were simply destroyed), for the control of that power. By building on top of an old place of worship you were showing the locals just whose God was bigger, better and more powerful (and of course to controlling the locals and their beliefs at the same time).

The Celts and Nordic-Germanic religious sites were always built on places of great power, like lay lines, concentrations of great earth energy, near water and other powerful natural features. In some of these places you can often 'feel' this energy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

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Satarel
post Mar 21 2005, 08:43 AM
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There's also suggestion that in the time between the resurrection and his ascension, Jesus went to India as well (not to mention disciples going there later). Can't remember whether it's the Gospel of Philip or the Gospel of Thomas that suggests it.


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The value of an individual is not numerically assignable. Given the individual's infinite capacity to affect change (for better or for worse), it follows that their value is just as infinite. Logically then, not only are all individuals of equal value, but all possible combinations and groupings of individuals are of equal value, and finally, no matter an individual's past actions, their capacity to affect positive change is not diminished.

The value of the individual is sacrosanct, but actions must be directed in an effort to affect positive change.

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Crom Cruach
post Mar 21 2005, 08:54 AM
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Yeah when he referred to the fires of hell he was talking about his last curry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/teu42.gif)

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post Mar 21 2005, 01:36 PM
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac41.gif)


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Crom Cruach
post Mar 22 2005, 07:10 AM
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Seriousely though, a lot of the spells and incantations used in the Celit and Germanic beliefs only seem to work in these places. The energy required is there to be tapped into by anyone with the knowledge and wisdom to do so (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wandwizard.gif) .

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bym
post Apr 12 2005, 07:24 AM
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Mudra is movement of the body in specific ways. It causes movement in the Astral light. Dance can be considered a form of Mudra.
Christian sects built on old worship spots because that was the way of getting the locals to come to church...in Britain there are whole towns which base their layout on old ley lines...
what? I've only 2 cents...! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)


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post Apr 12 2005, 07:31 AM
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QUOTE(bym @ Apr 12 2005, 08:24 PM)
Mudra is movement of the body in specific ways. It causes movement in the Astral light.

That is an interesting way to put it. Care to explain more please? How does different hand/fingers positions affect "astral light"? I'm quite clueless on mudra (IMG:style_emoticons/default/baby.gif)


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Kiwi Kid
post Apr 12 2005, 08:01 AM
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According to eastern tradition, a mudra is specific placing of the fingers, to connect certain meridians, this brings about an affect such as health, "wisdom", longetivity etc.

One of the most well known mudras is the Gnani mudra, where the tip of the thumb is placed on the tip of the index finger, this specific mudra connects the lung meridian to an area, where (in qigong philosophy) there is no major meridian, so the energy that goes there is quite intense, compared to it's lower energies usually, along with this, it stimulates the brain reflex located on the thumb, it is said to bring about wisdom, and also stimulates the muladhara.

The occident usually believes certain mudras affect the astral light as such, as already stated. Now, my belief about this is that the belief that a mudra does what it does, gives energy into the intellectual sphere, which as such gives the mudra a casual sphere, which gradually fulls with energy from more belief etc. When one uses the mudra, they draw upon this energy and it is put to use, for whatever the mudra supposedly does.

Also, not to be picky, but prana would correspond to chi etc, however, kundalini is quite different.


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Radiant Star
post Apr 14 2005, 01:30 PM
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I go along with the idea that some ancient places hold power - I think given that people in the past seemed to be more in touch with energies meant that they could often sense places that held power and that determined their choices for worshipping areas as well as basing their decisions on prominence too.

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Saintgeorge
post Apr 14 2005, 11:19 PM
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QUOTE
The Celts and Nordic-Germanic religious sites were always built on places of great power


Some excellent reading to be found on this subject are , Author Don Robin's books
`The Secret Language of Stone', and `Circles of Silence', he investigates various
standing stones in Britain where energies have been measured scientifically.

Robins is also a archeaologist of Celtic times and sites, and as such brings much
history and interesting information into his writings.

I can highly recommend his work on the Lindow Man, `THE LIFE AND DEATH OF A DRUID PRINCE'
http://www.biblio.com/books/932325.html

From http://www.world-mysteries.com/gw_rb7.htm
‘A New Theory Linking Stones and Crystals With Psychic Phenomena’

This is a sub-title of the work of Dr. Don Robins who authored The Secret
Language of Stone. He does a lot of excellent and well-respected work
including work with the Getty Institute and London’s archaeological
establishment. His doctorate in solid state chemistry allows us to listen
more closely to what otherwise would be best seen in the annals of science
fiction. His work in developing electron spin resonance equipment has
enabled us to do things like the recent dating of refined drugs in the camps
of Neanderthals back to 90,000 years ago. In my first encounters with his
work on The Dragon Project, I knew there was much more I needed to learn; in
order to understand concepts or systems like feng shui and ley lines. We
will explore these things in the words of other authors, but first I must
present a lot of Dr. Robins’ efforts. I am hopeful or near certain that the
reader will agree the apparent mystical aspects of this book are warranted
if we are ever to understand the genesis of our culture and the people who
lived in Neolithic time and before.


He introduces us to the fuller appreciation of a chasm that separates our
present paradigm from the spiritual one that existed until very recently in
large parts of the world. It opens the doors wide, to make us appreciate the
manifesting nature of energy and our part in what Bucky Fuller dubbed
‘creative realization’. It is not all a bed of roses as we see him deal with
the Hexham Heads. The ether that is all around us has coalescing energy
and/or consciousnesses that can pass from object or mind and back to the
other. The ritualistic or other conditions to imbue these energies with a
purpose is what may be involved in this most extraordinary case that I think
is similar to the Mothman in respect of localized elemental force entities.
It might even prove to have some connection with the knowledge encoding
process that our genetic make up includes.



http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl.htm has more interesting reading on the subject[I]


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Radiant Star
post Apr 15 2005, 01:33 AM
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bym
post Apr 17 2005, 09:40 AM
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Greetings! Though this is a thread about ancient places we have touched upon 'mudra' here and I wish to clarify something that I had posted earlier...
Mudra are hand positionings which apply a meditational symbolism with the flow of energy meridians as KiwiKid has stated. It is likened to 'talking with ones hands'.
Using mudra whilst employing magic gives us the image of gesticulations with either word or intent (or both). Everywhere you are you are surrounded by astral substance, 'astral light' as it were.... when we use mudra and cause our personal energies to flow in a specific way it affects the astral light around you. Your hand mudras may also be applied to body movements to affect similar reactions in both body and environment. Many martial arts employ such movements. Western magic employs similar movements as in The Rending of the Veil, Osiris Slain, etc. This is what I was driving at. I hope that it may clear any confusion that I caused by haste. A good web site:
http://www.mudrasforhealing.com/mudras.htm


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Starlit Knight
post Apr 19 2005, 08:17 PM
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QUOTE(Sage of the ages @ Dec 7 2004, 06:34 PM)
it is a thing one does with ones hands one of them is having your hand fully open and then thouching you ring finger to your thumb. it is suppost to help with the mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

[QUOTE](IMG:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/GungKang/Jesus.jpg),This is a Christian Orthodox Holy Icon , Look at Baby Jesus's Right hand.


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bym
post Apr 19 2005, 09:55 PM
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif)


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Rin
post Apr 27 2005, 01:23 PM
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I've often wondered how a Feng Shui compass would react in a place like Stonehenge ....


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Starlit Knight
post Apr 27 2005, 07:36 PM
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QUOTE(Rin Daemoko @ Apr 27 2005, 02:23 PM)
I've often wondered how a Feng Shui compass would react in a place like Stonehenge ....

[QUOTE] (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif)

Makes me wonder , Why are there pyramids in Egypt and the Americas and not in Asian countries .


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Saintgeorge
post Apr 28 2005, 06:23 AM
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/mf_bookread.gif) Oh but there are, haven't you heard of `Candi Sukuh' in Java.
Not a lot is known about this site, it dates to 1416 � 1459 AD.

(IMG:http://www.ami.com.au/~pat/java1.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.ami.com.au/~pat/java2.jpg)


and in China
(IMG:http://www.ami.com.au/~pat/china1.jpg)

and in Tahiti
(IMG:http://www.ami.com.au/~pat/TahitiPyramid.jpg)


more to see here http://survive2012.com/asia_pyramids.php


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«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥
=========================================

You are Ammi-seshet, Destructrice, Protectrice!
You are the Terror In front of Which Demons Tremble!
You are Desire! You are Life! That Which Burns Eternally!

=========================================
«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥
=========================================

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Radiant Star
post Apr 28 2005, 06:40 AM
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thankyou.gif)

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Starlit Knight
post Apr 28 2005, 06:48 PM
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DANG.....What a trip. Did'nt have a clue. Thanks. Are there ones dating back to the same time the great Pyramids were built in Egypt? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mf_popcorn.gif)
If their was , it would put a doubt to that of , "Mudra" being just a eastern thing. Amongs others.

This post has been edited by Starlit Knight: Apr 28 2005, 06:55 PM


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Mr_Merlin
post May 5 2005, 04:42 AM
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Jesus .... Joshua Ben Josef ... often visited Glastonbury as a child and after his disappearing act (the crucifixion/resurrection power play) .... the abbey was once the 2nd biggest and most informative esoteric library in the world ... 2nd only to the great library of Alexandria .... it was where he studied as a child ... learning his 'apprenticeship' into the Essenes ... the Nazarenes being their most secret order ....

There is so much reference to him in Glastonbury ...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/5.gif)


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mediocracy
post May 5 2005, 11:07 AM
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Mr Merlin, could you detail your sources please.

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Crom Cruach
post May 5 2005, 01:57 PM
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Mr Merlin you certainly seem to have mastered the art of sweeping statements. I too would like to hear of where you received this revelation of truth.

Additionally as a follower of the path, it would be interesting to hear to which clan an brahbnach you belong when talking about Avalon.

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Mr_Merlin
post May 6 2005, 03:49 AM
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/922.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Okay .... read on:-

UNRAVELLING THE MYSTERIES OF GLASTONBURY
To embark upon a project of this magnitude is daunting yet exciting as further research uncovers more and more of the potential facts that show a distinct possibility that not only Joseph of Arimathea, but the Virgin Mary and Jesus Christ lived at Glastonbury, Joseph and Mary being buried there.
In the search for the answers to the mysteries that surround Glastonbury the reader will be taken on voyages of historic discovery, not just in Glastonbury and England, but in the Holy Land, Rome and Egypt.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush2.gif)

THE FAMILY TREE OF JESUS
In order to make a logical start the family tree of Jesus needs to be studied. It is not generally known that in the Herald's Office at the English College of Arms there is a family tree of Jesus from the time of Adam. Part of this family tree is sufficient for what is needed here.

ANN (Mother of the Virgin Mary)
married
JOACHIM CLEOPHAS SALOME
(1st Husband) (2nd Husband) (3rd Husband)
I I I
VIRGIN MARY MARY ALPHAEUS MARY ZEBEDEE
I I
-------------------------- I
I I I I I
JESUS JAMES SIMON JUDE I
I
-------------------------------------
I I I
JOHN THE DIVINE JOSEPH BARSABAST JAMES

From this document we learn that Ann, mother of the Virgin Mary, was married three times. Her first husband was Joachim by whom she had the Virgin Mary, her second husband was Cleophas and her third was Salome. (In Hachette's guide "Bleu Bretagne" there is an ancient Breton tradition that Anna, mother of the Virgin Mary, was born in Cornouaille (Cornwall?) of Royal blood. When she was pregnant with the Virgin Mary, her husband (Joachim), ill treated her and she fled from Europe to Jaffa and settled in Nazareth where Mary was born.) Ann or Anna,had a sister called Bianca who was the mother of Joseph, the Virgin Mary's husband, thus showing that he was also her first cousin.


BIANCA
(Aunt of the Virgin Mary)
I
--------------------------------------------------------
I I
JOSEPH ELIZABETH
(Husband of Mary) I
I I
JESUS JOHN THE BAPTIST

In the British Museum there is the Harl Manuscript which confirms the above information. Another manuscript, held at Jesus College, shows the family tree of Joseph of Arimathea and gives confirmation that Penardin, granddaughter of Joseph of Arimathea married King Lear of Britain. Notice that far from being confined to Palestine, the Holy Family seem, through Joseph of Arimathea, to have intermarried into British royalty and to have left Palestine to live in Britain.


ANN BIANCA JOSEPH OF ARIMATHEA
I I I
VIRGIN MARY ELIZABETH ANNA
I I I
JESUS JOHN THE PENARDIN
BAPTIST (Married King Lear)
I
BRAN
(British King)
I
CARACTACUS
(British King)
I
GLADYS
(British Princess)

The preceding genealogies are important because of the totally different perspective of the interrelationship of the nations at the time of Jesus. It is interesting to note that the traditionally "poor" family of Jesus might not have been so "poor" after all. It appears to be difficult for most people to think of Mary and Jesus as real people who lived in a real world. Sadly, this is due to the religious artists through the centuries, as well as the general apostasy of Christianity from the original gospel taught by Jesus and his apostles. Victor Dunstan puts the point across most succinctly in his excellent book, "Did the Virgin Mary Live and Die in England?"

It is almost impossible to see the traditional depictions of the Virgin Mary, the ever placid expression, the ever clean robes, the ever young and virginal face and the ever present halo without losing all realisation that this was a woman who actually lived on this planet. The religious desire to honour the Virgin Mary has resulted in her "public image" being such as does not cause one to believe in the reality of the woman. Superstition and myth are concepts that have been writ large over the story of the mother of Jesus.

Similarly, how can anyone appreciate as a historic flesh-and-blood reality, a man who is ridiculously depicted as always standing at doors knocking, balefully waiting for someone, who never does, to open them? Jesus too, has that ever present halo hovering over his head and the fact that he seems effeminate and always to be in danger of bursting into tears may be one of the reasons why there are fewer men than women in many of our churches.

How can anyone believe, as a reality, in someone who is depicted as being so hygienic that his white robes, even after forty days in the wilderness, did not become dirty and look as though they had just been brought washing powder advert white and stiffly starched from the airing cupboard?

Let us look more closely now at some of the life of Jesus and Joseph of Arimathea.


JESUS - THREAT TO THE JEWS
It would appear that troubling people was to be the pattern for Jesus' career. We are told that King Herod was troubled at his birth and Jesus went on bothering people, especially those in authority, for the rest of his life. However, it was not just during his life that Jesus annoyed people, but after his death aswell. This worry was not a superficial one, it was a deep fear which bred an almost psychopathic antipathy deep enough for political careers to be put at risk and deep enough to cause the Sanhedrin to break it's own laws aswell as the laws of Rome.
There is an old saying that "actions speak louder than words" and the actions that were taken against Jesus before, during and after his trial speak volumes about the fear of the Sanhedrin. Many of the Jewish hierarchy saw Jesus and his followers as a threat. Remember, Herod was convinced enough that the "King of Kings" had been born to murder hundreds of innocent children in order to keep his position safe. The hatred of Jesus and his followers was an almost insane hatred that led the Sanhedrin to behave in ways they would never have thought possible.

No religious group is ever proud of any treachery from within its ranks and the Jews are no different, but, to their credit, subterfuge has never played a particularly large part in the history of their nation and yet some of the most influential leaders of the time of Christ behaved in a way akin to the Gestapo in order to send Jesus to his death and erase every trace of him from the pages of history. It would appear that the lengths that the Sanhedrin went to were quite out of proportion to the threat that Jesus would have seemed to have posed. Why?

Jesus did not give politically exciting speeches, nor did he try to engender feelings of hatred towards the Romans, infact his messages were normally to exhort the people to love one another. True, he did become cross at the Temple and whipped and threw out the money changers, but this was not a crucifiable offence. Granted, Jesus likened the Pharisees to a "generation of vipers" but he had a right to say this under the law and could not be legally punished for saying it. I am sure that the Pharisees had been called much worse than that by other people! The people that Jesus healed showed no real gratitude, infact, of the ten lepers that Jesus healed only one came to offer his thanks. It would seem that the genuine followers of Jesus were not very many so the Sanhedrin could not accuse him of setting up bands of people for demonstrations etc. Infact, even the integrity of some of Jesus closest followers has to be called into question. It is interesting to note that even Hitler in his death bunker received more personal loyalty from his friends at the time of his death than did Jesus. Goebells, Goebell's wife, their children and Eva Braun were all willing to pay the supreme sacrifice for their beloved leader; yet, the disciples slept while Jesus sweated as it were "great drops of blood" in Gethsemene, a foreigner had to help him carry his cross, Peter denied him three times, all the other apostles abandoned him and Judas Iscariot betrayed him for money. There was no demonstration against the crucifixion nor any tribute to Jesus after his death. It could be argued that Jesus' followers were afraid for their own lives, yet if you look through the history books you will find countless stories of people who were prepared to sacrifice themselves for the people to whom they were devoted. So why then did the Jews fear him so much?

Despite Jesus' apparent lack of offenses, Caiaphus manipulated the trial proceedings to such an extent that even with a majority vote for the release of Jesus, he took over the proceedings himself allowing no recourse to the defence and went to the extremity of sending Jesus to Pontious Pilate on a charge of treason against Rome. Pilate said "I find no fault in this man" and washed his hands of the whole affair after pronouncing Jesus innocent on four occasions! It is of note that some of the first words Pilate said to Jesus were "What is Truth?" These three words were passwords used by the British Druids at the beginning of their debates. There are authorities who say that Pilate finished his education in a Druid College in England. Could it possibly be that Caiaphus, knowing of Pilate's education in Britain and knowing that Jesus had spent a considerable amount of his life in Britain, thought that Jesus might instigate a total change of religion to that of Druidism and hence "do away with" Judaism? It is an interesting thought to which there is no concrete answer, but it would explain the fanatascism of the Sanhedrin.
There was a legal requirement at that time that a civilian must identify an arrested person. This then was the sole purpose of the Sanhedrin paying Judas to identify Jesus, after all, Jesus was a well known figure around Jerusalem. After Judas' kiss of identification the priest's guard, with authority from the Sanhedrin, arrested Jesus, not the Roman guard as is so often assumed. It was ILLEGAL for the priest's guard to arrest a citizen, this right lay solely with the Romans by order of the court. This would not have escaped the defenders of Jesus in his trial. Could

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JOSEPH OF ARIMATHEA - NOBILIS DECURIO
It is not my purpose to delve into all the problems of Jesus' trial though it does make fascinating reading. I am sure that you are curious as to how Glastonbury fits into all of this. In order to show this we need to look at who Joseph of Arimathea was, as he is the link between Palestine, the Holy Family and Britain. His relationship to Mary is important because the proof of that makes it probable that she and the boy Jesus would have been under his guardianship after the death of Joseph (Mary's Husband) when Jesus was approximately twelve or thirteen years old. As rules of guardianship were very strictly adhered to it would be a reasonable assumption to say that Mary and Jesus would have travelled with Joseph of Arimathea.
It is interesting to note that Joseph of Arimathea was known as Joseph de Marmore as he lived in Marmorica in Egypt before he moved to Arimathea. This could well explain the ease with which Mary, Joseph and Jesus were able to flee to Egypt during Herod's "slaughter of the innocents". Without some sort of contact in Egypt to supply accommodation etc., it would have been a very perilous journey to have undertaken.


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Joseph of Arimathea was referred to by the Romans as "Nobilis Decurio" or Minister of Mines to the Roman Government, he was also, as previously mentioned, the sire of a Queen of the ancient British Royal Family. Not only all this, he was also an eminent member of the Sanhedrin and worked for the defence in Jesus' trial. It is a fact that only relatives of a crucified person could request the removal of the body from the cross, consequently Joseph of Arimathea must have been related to Jesus and was possibly Jesus' closest living male relative, hence the use of Joseph's tomb.

As just previously mentioned Joseph of Arimathea was a Minister of Mines for the Romans. It is a well documented fact that Britain led the world at this time with its tin. Herodotus, as far back as 450 BC writes of the British Isles as the "Cassiterides" or "Tin Islands". In the "History of England" by Sir Edward Creasy we are told that, "The British Mines mainly supplied the glorious adornment of Solomon's Temple". There are other references to be found about tin in the British Isles in many early history books. At Ostia, the seaport of Rome, an archaeological dig produced an ancient Roman drain-pipe that had been bonded with tin. A section of this tin was sent to England for analysis by a Professor Forbes who declared it to be metal from the Mendip Hills which are near to Glastonbury. In Cornwall, as late as the middle 1800's, tin miners sang songs as they worked and the chorus of one such song ran "Joseph was in the tin trade". It is worthy of mentioning that mention of Joseph Of Arimathea in England is restricted to Cornwall and Somerset these being the only two counties that were involved in the tin trade. There are many traditions, stories etc., abounding in these two counties but nowhere else, not even in Devon which is only "next door". It would appear that Joseph travelled only where his work took him before finally settling in Glastonbury.

Most people who have read the New Testament will be aware of the acute silence about the life of Jesus from the age of twelve when he was teaching in the temple to when he began his ministry in his 30's. Cornwall and Somerset are full of traditions that Jesus and Mary went there. Remember, it is suggested that Ann, the Virgin Mary's mother had lived in Cornwall and as Joseph was her brother chances are he knew people, or even had family there. We know for a fact that Joseph's granddaughter Penardin married King Lear so she and her family must have been moving in royal circles. What more logical place for Jesus to spend years of study and preparation for his forthcoming ministry in Jerusalem than in a country where a) he had visited before as a young boy, b) where he probably had some relatives and c)where the religion of the time was similar to his own teachings.

THE BRITISH DRUIDS
It is vital to look at the religion of the day in the British Isles at this time in order to further establish reasons why Joseph, Mary and Jesus would have come here. I quote from Victor Dunstan's "Did the Virgin Mary Live and Die in England?"
Where other than Britain could Jesus have gone? Would it have been edifying for him to dwell in Pagan Rome with it's obscenities and cruelties? Could he have felt at home in Greece with it's multiplicity of Gods and perversions?

The whole of Europe, from the Rhine to Spain and from the Euphrates to Calais was tainted with the depraved paganism of Rome. Even the Druidism of Gaul had become bastardised by Roman paganism and had adopted that which was abominated by every Israelite - human sacrifice.

Only in Britain was there a fountain of pure religion flowing, a religion which was uncannily similar in character to the religion of Israel.


R.W. Morgan in his excellent work "St. Paul in Britain" writes of the British Druids:

"Westward of Italy, embracing Hispania, Gallia and the Renish frontiers, portions of Germany and Scandinavia, with it's HEADQUARTERS and GREAT SEATS OF LEARNING fixed in Britain, extended the Druidic religion. There can be no question that this was the primitive religion of mankind, covering at one period in various forms the whole surface of the ancient world.

The ramifications of Druidism penetrated, indeed, into Italy, Greece, and Asia Minor; nor did Plato hesitate to affirm that all the streams of Greek philosophy were to be traced, not to Egypt, but to the fountains of the West. The pre-historic poets of Greece anterior to the mythological creations of Homer and Hesiod, were, as their names imply, Druids..."


There are many books that can be read about Druidism and they will all reveal that Britain was a centre of learning in the world even before the time of Christ. As far as culture and learning went, the British eclipsed both the Greeks and the Romans. Isabel Hill Elder writes:

"Concerning the educationaE4 Editor l facilities available to the so-called barbarous people of these islands, there were at the time of the Roman invasion FORTY DRUIDIC CENTRES OF LEARNING.

...The students of these colleges numbered at times sixty thousand of the youth and young nobility of Britain and Gaul. Caesar comments on the fact that the Gauls sent their youth to Britain to be educated."

Knowing that Jesus had to grow in knowledge and learn the same ways that an ordinary man did would lead us to presume that he probably attended one of these great seats of learning. The way that Jesus was able to confound the Pharisees and Sadducees, themselves excellent practitioners of the art of debate, indicates that Jesus must have had a considerable education. When a Roman went to arrest Jesus he came back without having arrested him and said "Never man spake like this man".

We now have three reasons as to why Jesus and Mary would have come to Britain.

1. Convenience. Easy transport was available through Joseph of Arimathea and there were probably relatives to stay with.

2. Education. Britain was the only land with extremely high standards of education.

3. Religion. The Druid religion was so like the religion of the Hebrews.

This third factor would have been the most important of the three as far as Jesus and Mary were concerned. The similarities between the ancient faith of Israel and that of Druidism are quite startling. Yes, there are recorded instances of human sacrifice but this must be taken in context. All religions have their bastard offshoots and Druidism was no exception. Imagine if you will what the world would teach about the religion of Israel if some archaeologists dug up the Golden Calf and nobody had written the Biblical record that we have
!

I do not wish to digress into a discussion on Druidism but I feel it is essential to mention just a few points to further show why Jesus would have come to Britain.

1. For hundreds of years the Druids had looked forward to the time when their saviour would come whose name would be Hesus.

2. Druids believed in the immortality of the soul and in the resurrection of the body.

3. Israelites were not allowed to hew stone for their altars as they had been instructed ""And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it." (Exodus 20:25, see also Deuteronomy 27:5) Druids were not allowed to hew stone for their altars either.

4. It was at Bethel that Jacob slept with his head on a stone. The central stone in the Druid circle was called Bethel.

5. Druids believed in a Godhead of three main personages but also believed in a multiplicity of gods.

6. It is believed that Druidism was founded by Gwyddon Ganhebon, supposedly Seth of the Mosaic genealogy, in Asia and was brought to Britain by Hu Gadarn a contemporary of the Patriarch Abraham.

7. Druids believed in the great law of atonement. Caesar wrote of the Druid's belief, "The Druids teach that by no other way than the ransoming of man's life by the life of man, is reconciliation with the divine justice of the immortal gods possible". It can be seen quite easily how this statement could be construed to mean human sacrifice, but if you bear in mind that the Druids were awaiting Hesus who would redeem them through his death, I believe the statement drops into context. It is also a documented fact that there is no evidence of any human sacrifice by Druids having taken place in this country. Even the mysterious "Bog-Man" uncovered in peat a few years ago was proved to have come from Ireland where a separate form of Druidism was practised.

When Jesus arrived in Britain, he was in a land where the people already worshipped somebody called Hesus and which had received it's faith from Seth and taught many of the doctrines which he would himself be later teaching although in a more correct form.

To fully understand how the Druid religion came to be in Britain after having been established in Asia would mean writing another article many pages long. Suffice it to say that when the tribes of Israel scattered some of the tribe of Ephraim made it to Britain. This is a subject that must, because of it's enormity, be approached separately. An article about the Tribes of Israel and where they went will be written for "Truth Seeker" and I hope that it will help to tie in why Druidism was being practised in Britain so far from it's origins.




PART TWO

WHAT HAPPENED TO JESUS?
Jesus did not appear to be known by his family when he began His ministry in and around Jerusalem. I also said that there was a possibility that Jesus' arrest could have been legal if he had not lived in Palestine long enough to be classified as a citizen. So, if Jesus had not been in Palestine for very long, then where had He been?
There is a biblical period of silence that spans the time from when the Holy Family left Egypt and the time that Jesus was left behind at the Passover when He was twelve years old. This is approximately ten years of Jesus' life of which there are no Palestinian legends or traditions. There is also another period which spans from the Passover incident at the Temple until the commencement of Jesus' ministry. After the Holy Family's flight into Egypt, the Passover incident is the only one recorded about their life until Jesus' ministry.


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The incident at the temple during the Passover is not all that important or profound and does not carry any great gospel message. I feel that it would be safe to assume that this incident was written about because it was the ONLY incident that the author of the account knew about. Both Jesus and Mary must have said some things worthy of note yet they do not appear to be recorded.

From the Bible we learn that many of the disciples of Jesus were either his family or his friends and as such should have been conversant with Mary and Jesus, yet we know that they did not recognise Him when He called them to join His ministry.

Bearing in mind the miraculous circumstances of Jesus' birth and the ensuing events immediately afterwards, one would assume that the Palestinians would not have forgotten such a thing. Even King Herod recognised that the Messiah must have been born as so many prophecies were fulfilled at the time of Jesus' birth. So, where are the records, stories or legends that you would expect to find about the family? You would expect Jesus to be the centre of attention and many people coming to Him for healing etc. After all, millions of people have gone to Lourdes to be healed by water which they believe to be divinely blessed by the Virgin Mary, many, many years after the actual vision of St. Bernadette. Human nature being what it is I would have expected queues of people every day lining up to at least "gawk" at the miracle child if not to be healed or blessed by Him.

We are left to assume that the total absence of documentary evidence about Jesus and His family during these periods must be because He was not there. Where was He?

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THE FIRST CHRISTIAN CHURCH
There is much documentation and many legends and traditions that exist regarding Jesus and Mary being in Britain. I could fill pages relating old stories and legends about the two of them being in this country, particularly at Glastonbury, but it is not my purpose to spend time writing what has already been written.
Knowing the somewhat "high-handed" opinion of itself that the Roman Catholic Church has, and also knowing that they would like to consider themselves the founder of Christianity, it is interesting to note that even today in the grand Church Councils that take place where each country is placed around a table in the order that they received Christianity, first and foremost sits Great Britain. The Catholics have tried in the past to prove this inaccurate but have never been able to prove their case. As long ago as 597 AD when it was not in the best interests of either the Roman Catholic Church or St Augustin to admit that the Roman Church was not the first church in Britain, we find St Augustin writing to Pope Gregory:

"In the Western confines of Britain there is a royal island of large extent, surrounded by water, abounding in all the beauties of nature and necessaries of life. In it the first Neophites of Catholic Law, God hath beforehand acquainted them, found a Church constructed by no human art, BUT BY DIVINE CONSTRUCTION BY THE HANDS OF CHRIST HIMSELF, for the salvation of His people.

One is led to wonder what St Augustin meant when he referred to the "church constructed by no human art, but by the hands of Christ Himself, for the salvation of His people"? Should we take this literally? It certainly seems to make clear that there was a Church already standing when Joseph of Arimathea and his companions arrived at Glastonbury. I would suggest that the word "constructed" shows that it was a material Church and not a spiritual one that had been built. The building had been erected from wattle and was considered so sacred that it is recorded that Paulinus, the companion of St Augustin, covered the old church with a protective covering of boards, with the purpose of its preservation. It is possible that it could also mean that the Glastonbury Christian community was established on a "foundation" laid by Christ Himself.


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Remember that St Augustin arrived in 597 AD with the belief that the whole island was pagan. He actually found that it was only the Eastern parts which had been invaded and settled by the Saxons that were pagan, and that in the Western parts where the Britons had been driven there was a very powerful British Church which even had its own Bishops.

The royal island referred to is, without doubt, the Isle of Avalon, that is Glastonbury. I believe the first neophites (ie converts of ministers) were Joseph of Arimathea and his companions. They were granted land under the Royal Patronage of King Arviragus when they first arrived and never had to pay any taxes on the twelve hides of land that they were given.

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GLASTONBURY

THE ISLE OF AVALON
Have you walked along the Mendips
Where His weary feet have gone,

When He climbed the Tor and looked out

O'er the Isle of Avalon?


Have you seen the Holy Thorn tree

Standing in the evening sun,

Full of blooms and scented perfume

On the Isle of Avalon?


And the lead mines on the hill-tops

I have often gazed upon,

Where He walked - a lonely figure

On the Isle of Avalon.


Up the Cheddar Gorge to Priddy,

In the rain and snow and sun,

Just to give His simple message

To the Isle of Avalon.


Near the Chalice Well His hut stood;

When the day of work was done

He would watch the golden sunset,

O'er the Isle of Avalon.


You may walk there, in His footsteps,

And your eyes will rest upon

Glastonbury's sacred mountains,

On the Isle of Avalon.


Kirsten Parsons


In the beautiful countryside of Somerset in the West of England lies the town and Abbey of Glastonbury. All that is left of the Abbey are some magnificent ruins but the signs of all of it's former glory remain. I have had the privilege of standing in the grounds at Glastonbury and feeling the stillness and the hush that appears to pervade the area. I have been moved to tears as I stand at the site reputed to be where Mary, the mother of Jesus was buried. In this world that we live in where there is so much hatred and crime and filth, it is a relief to know that there are places that you can go to receive a re-vitalisation. To me, the grounds of the Abbey at Glastonbury and the grounds of the Chalice Well are two such places. The many traditions that have grown up in and around Glastonbury are what help to contribute to the feelings of peace and beauty.

Note: conversations with Glastonbury historians and librarians will confirm that the legends of Jesus living in Glasonbury as a child ... as a druid ... and as an 'old man' will confirm the story ... indeed there is a house on the side of Chalice Hill ... which has been built on the exact spot where Christ was said to have lived ....


VETUSTA ECCLESIA
Probably the most hallowed of the traditions that surround Glastonbury is the story that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was buried there. It is said that she was interred in its sacred ground to become the first of a long line of saints buried at Glastonbury.
After Mary's death, a wattle construction building was built over her home. It measured sixty feet in length and was twenty-six feet wide/ This building became known as the "Vetusta Ecclesia" or the "Lignea Basilica" and the "Ealdechurche" or "Old Church".


An assumption has been made by several authors who have written about Glastonbury that Joseph, after the death of Mary, decreed that the place where she was buried should be dedicated as a place of worship of Christ. Not long after Mary's death Joseph and his disciples lived together as a community around the Vetusta Ecclesia. Perhaps this was so that they could help perpetuate the continuing worship of Jesus Christ at a spot that would have been considered very sacred.

Maelgwyn wrote: "The Isle of Avalon greedy of burials...received thousands of sleepers, among whom Joseph de Marmore from Aramathea by name, entered his perpetual sleep. And he lies in a bifurcated line next the southern angle of the oratory made of circular wattles by 13 inhabitants of the place over the powerful adorable Virgin." He also wrote concerning the other saints buried at Glastonbury: "who there awaited the day of resurrection under the protection of the Mother of God." The implications are obvious and help to explain why the Vetusta Ecclesia later became known as "Mary's Chapel" as well as "St Joseph's Chapel".

Glastonbury can boast of having the most superior cemetery in the world. There is a list that is still extant that records the names of those buried at Glastonbury and it is truly illustrious. The old cemetery, along side the Mary's Chapel, has been called "the most holiest ground in earth;" "the most hallowed spot in Christendom;" "the burial place of the Saints." William of Malmesbury describes it as "held in great reverence, on account of the number of Saints, Martyrs and Confessors, who had found a resting place, either by ending their days here, or whose bones, owing to its character for superior sanctity, had been translated hither...For it seems to have been the custom at Glastonbury, in early ages, to place the relics of some saint in a magnificent shrine, to attract a multitude of worshippers...It, with the venerated Vetusta Ecclesia, was called the "Tomb of the Saints." As well as Mary and Joseph of Arimathea, Philip, plus twelve of his disciples, St Patrick of Ireland, St David, King Coel, or Hoel, (the father of Queen Helena and grandfather of Constantine), were laid to rest there. There is also evidence to suggest that the remains of King Arthur and Queen Guinivere were found not far from the cemetery and the body of the great martyr Thomas a Beckett was laid to rest here also. Is it any wonder that one can feel so at peace when standing in close proximity to such a sacred place?

Gradually, over a period of many years there was the inevitable falling away from the original teachings of Jesus Christ and Joseph of Arimathea. As the Catholic Church became more and more involved in religion so many of the earlier teachings became lost and the simplicity of the Gospel was lost in the profound "mysteries" of Catholicism. "Bigger and Better" seemed to be the motto for several centuries after about 900 -1000 AD and the simple wattle church was replaced eventually with an Abbey Church that was, without doubt, one of the finest examples of 12th Century architecture. The Mary's Chapel was built over, destroyed and then rebuilt in the same style as the Abbey Church. Some of the most learned men in the country came there to study and the vast library of books was unequalled anywhere in the world.

In 1184 AD there was a fire which consumed the greater part of the Glastonbury Abbey including the original Wattle Church. The lead that had encased it melted and destroyed it. No real reason was ever put forward as to why the fire started but it was generally circulated at the time that candles had ignited some curtains during a wind storm.

This fire resulted in the loss of beautiful treasures of gold and silver, silk and ornaments, the value of which could not have been replaced at that time. The greatest loss of all was the famous library, considered the finest collection of books of the period, including records covering a thousand years of Glastonbury Abbey history. To most people the loss of the books that the monks worked on that were illuminated on vellum (parchment) bound in richly tooled leather and mounted with silver and gold was and still is a catastrophe; to me the greatest loss would have been the writings of those people who personally knew Joseph of Arimathea and perhaps even Jesus.

Gradually, over many years, the monks undertook the restoration of their beloved Abbey. After a little over 100 years the work on the great Church had been completed and then in 1275 AD years of work was destroyed by an earthquake that severely damaged much of the stone work. Again, the monks undertook restoration work under the supervision of the various Abbots and the Abbey was again became a building of splendour. Finally, in 1539, the Abbey came into the possession of the King, Henry VIII, and so came about its final dissolution.

The legend of the Holy Thorn is one that most people are able to accept and believe as there are still several Thorns that do flower at Christmas around Glastonbury. Of course these are trees that have been grown from graftings that were grown from graftings etc., etc., but with a little imagination you can believe the trees to be the ones that grew from the staff that Joseph of Arimathea planted.

When Joseph of Arimathea arrived at Glastonbury it is said that he thrust into the ground the staff that he had carried with him from the Holy Land. Experts have declared that a staff of wood that had relatively recently been cut from a tree could take root in moist ground and begin to grow. It is said that this is what happened and that eventually a cutting was taken from the tree and grown in the grounds near the original Wattle Church.

The Glastonbury Holy Thorn Tree is somewhat unique because it has bo exact parallel among native English trees. It actually blooms twice a year which no other English tree does. The natural blooming period of the Levatine (Palestine) thorn is during the month of December whilst British ones bloom in May. The Glastonbury Thorn, of which there is one in the grounds of the Abbey ruins, one at the Chalice Well and one in the grounds of the Parish Church of St John on the Glastonbury High Street, blooms in May along with all the English trees and then again in December along with all the Palestinian trees. Cuttings from the trees have been sent to a variety of places around the world and the subsequent trees grown from the cuttings have continued to bloom twice a year.

Whether the Thorn truly came from Palestine and was planted by Joseph of Arimathea, perhaps we will never know for sure, I do not really feel that this is of great importance albeit very interesting. I do, however, feel that there is significance in the sacredness of the land around the ruins of the Abbey. I do believe that Mary the mother of Jesus was buried there and also Joseph of Arimathea. I hope that one day some form of indisputably documented proof will come to light so that the world as a whole will be able to believe if they wish to. At the moment we have to rely on documents that evolved after the great fire in the 12th Century and our own personal feelings.




PART THREE

THE CHALICE WELL
At the foot of Chalice Hill in Glastonbury there is a well that actually runs as a spring. For as long as can be remembered this well has been called either the "Chalice Well" or the "Holy Well". The Well is fed by an underground river that is believed to originate somewhere to the north in the Mendip Hills. It is of interest to note that after excavations near to the Well in 1961 which uncovered the stump of a yew tree nearly twelve feet below the present surface, it is now generally recognised that the Well only became a well after several centuries of rainfall and then earthquakes in the 13th Century. Originally the water would have come out as a surface spring.
It is in the writings of William of Malmesbury that we find the earliest records of the Chalice Well. He said that sometimes the waters were blue and at other times they were red. Due to this statement some people have called the Chalice Well the "Blood Spring".

The legend of the "Blood Spring" is related to the tradition that when Joseph came to Britain with the Cup of the Last Supper, he brought with him two cruets, one holding the blood and the other holding the sweat of Jesus Christ. The blood and sweat were supposedly washed from his body after the Crucifixion and prior to His entombment. It is recorded that buried with Joseph of Arimathea are the two white and silver cruets filled with the blood and sweat of the Prophet Jesus. Up to this time these cruets have never been found.

Referring back now to the Cup of the Last Supper; according to legend Joseph of Arimathea planted the Cup in the Chalice Well and after doing this the waters streamed forth blood. It is true that the water does leave a crimson deposit on the stones that it flows over and it is also true that at times the water appears very red in colour, however, I believe this to be due (as do scientists and historians) to the large levels of iron in the water. I have actually drunk from the water coming from the Well and to me it tasted like an iron bar!

Anybody who has the opportunity to visit Glastonbury should make an effort to go to the Chalice Well. Thanks to a trust fund that was set up several years ago, the grounds have been turned into beautiful gardens. There are seats scattered about and people can stay for as long as they wish. The water has been channelled from the Well and flows through the gardens forming pools. There is one section where a glass is permanently left by the water so that if you should wish to you may have a drink. The healing power of the waters is a well-documented fact stretching back hundreds of years. There is an aura of peacefulness and tranquillity in these gardens.



JOSEPH'S TOMB
In the year 1345 Edward III, King of England, gave permission to one John Bloom of London, to dig for the body of Joseph of Arimathea. Up to this time the grave had been undisturbed. John Bloom had to obtain permission from the Abbot and monks at Glastonbury Abbey and also from the Glastonbury Community. Permission was granted and apparently the remains of Joseph were found. A monk, R. de Boston, from his Lincolnshire Monastery, recorded the following: "The bodies of Joseph of Arimathea and his companions were found in Glastonbury."
Joseph's bones were placed in a silver casket which was then placed into a stone sarcophagus which in turn was placed at the east end of the crypt under St. Mary's Chapel. From then on the chapel was often referred to as St. Joseph's Chapel as well. Originally the crypt was reached by a staircase that passed the ancient Norman well of St. Joseph and this is purported to be near where John Bloom actually found the tomb of Joseph. On visiting the Abbey now, you can go into the St. Joseph's Chapel and actually climb what is left of the original staircase by the well and emerge on the outside of the building. (Not recommended for young children, the stairs are dangerous).

By putting Joseph's bones into a silver casket they could be easily removed and shown to the many pilgrims who came to the Abbey. It would appear from several historical documents that the stone sarcophagus of Joseph of Arimathea was still in place in the St. Joseph's Chapel as late as 1661. One John Ray records that on June 22 1661; "we saw Joseph of Arimathea's tomb and chapel at the end of the Church." Later, in the same year, the same man returned to Glastonbury and records seeing the sarcophagus of St. Joseph in the ruined Chapel. (Ruined because of the earlier dissolution of the monasteries under Oliver Cromwell in 1539). John Ray was afraid that there might be another wave of Puritanical fanaticism such as had destroyed the original Thorn Tree, and fearing that Joseph's tomb might be desecrated he removed it secretly and buried it unmarked in the church yard, adjoining the east end of St. Mary's chapel. (I assume that he had some help in this venture as I should think that the tomb would need at least eight to ten men to lift it!)

It was two hundred and twenty-six years later that the Rev Lionel Smithett Lewis (late Vicar of Glastonbury) accidentally stumbled, quite literally, on a corner of the sarcophagus in the grave yard. The stone sarcophagus now sits under the Arthurian window of St Katherine's Chapel in the Parish Church of St John the Baptist in the High Street of Glastonbury. The silver casket holding the bones of Joseph of Arimathea was never found.



THE CUP OF THE LAST SUPPER
"The cup, the cup, itself, from which our Lord
Drank at the last sad supper with His own.

This, from the blessed land of Aromat-

After the day of darkness, when the dead

Went wandering o'er Moriah - the good saint,

Arimathean Joseph, journeying brought

To Glastonbury, where the winter thorn

Blossoms at Christmas, mindful of our Lord.

And there awhile it bode; and if a man

Could touch or see it, he was heal'd at once,

By faith, of all his ills. But then the times

Grew to such evil that the holy cup

Was caught away to Heaven, and disappear'd.

Tennyson

For over one thousand years there has been a belief that the original cup of the Last Supper was brought to England by Joseph of Arimathea and that he buried it in the Chalice Hill near to the opening of the Chalice Well. As time ran its course so more and more legends grew up around the Cup of the Last Supper. The most famous of all these legends have to be those surrounding Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table and their inevitable quests for the "Holy Grail". Even Indiana Jones, along with Hollywood and Sean Connery, has succeeded to further the legend and bring it to our television screens.

Whilst many romantic stories picture the Cup of the Last Supper as being made of gold or silver and encrusted with precious jewels, it is far more likely that the Cup was made of plain wood and was just an ordinary drinking vessel. (Luckily Indiana Jones made the right choice, did you see what happened to the bad guy who chose the fancy cup?!!!)

It is reported that at the time of the destruction of Glastonbury Abbey, Richard Whiting, the last Abbot, entrusted a wooden cup to his monks to carry away to safety. This cup was described as "the most precious treasure of our Abbey". The monks fled into Wales and took sanctuary in the remote Cistercian Abbey of Strata Florida (now ruined). However, with the continual approach of King Henry's men they had to flee even further west and they ended up at Nanteus Manor which is in a secluded valley about three miles from Aberystwyth. Over the years the monks remained safely at Nanteus Manor until eventually they began to die of old age. At that time the last surviving monk supposedly gave the Cup to the Lord of the Manor and charged him that the Cup would remain at Nanteos Manor "until the church claims her own".

Since that time the Cup has built up a reputation of being a Healing Cup and many miraculous cures have been claimed by those afflicted who drank from the Cup. Are the remnants of the Nanteos Cup the remnants of the Cup used for the Sacrament at the Last Supper? Does it really have healing powers? The owner of the Cup now will testify in no uncertain terms of the healing power of the Cup as her daughter lay dying from a broken skull after a ladder fell on her head. The owner of the cup took it from its box and prayed that her child might live. Within minutes the hospital telephoned to say that the bleeding had stopped and her child would live. Not only did Jean (the child) live, but she completely recovered to live a perfectly normal life.

It is a moot point as to whether the cup has extraordinary healing powers or whether it is just a vehicle to motivate people's faith. There are many who believe that this humble wooden vessel is the Cup of the Last Supper. Until we receive further light and knowledge on a subject that is so surrounded by myth, we shall never know for sure. Until that time comes I have no real reason to disbelieve the stories surrounding the Nanteos Cup.



To those who have had the privilege to visit Glastonbury I hope that these articles have enhanced what you already knew, to those who have never visited I can only say that irrespective of whether you believe that Jesus Christ and His mother Mary lived there, or Joseph of Arimathea came there after the Crucifixion, or any of the legends and traditions, the place itself is beautiful and instills a hush upon the inner soul that it is difficult to find anywhere else.


--------------------
Hey! This life is just a dream. As in any dream the sleeper can assume control. Magic is gaining that control and using that awakening to full advantage

Married for life, to my devoted wife, who I have neglected recently but will do no more..........

A Light In The Darkness Blog; A LIGHT IN THE DARKNESS

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Alafair
post May 7 2005, 10:08 AM
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ac42.gif)

Brilliant posting - makes me homesick (IMG:style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif)

Does it have a provenance?

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mediocracy
post May 7 2005, 10:29 AM
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If you are going to cut and paste from the net at least have the courtesy to provide a link to the source. http://messenger.mormonfundamentalism.org/glaston.htm

Does anyone else think it is likely that a site designed specifically to promote a certain view may well be taking 2 + 2 and making 2309.01234232

I do not have the time or inclination to pull Mr Merlin's post apart line by line. I hope forum members will note the source and make up their own minds accordingly.

A general note to forum members - please provide links to sources as it would be unfortunate if people thought a long cut & paste was your original work.

This post has been edited by mediocracy: May 7 2005, 11:59 PM

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